Did Elon Musk Win the Election for Trump?

The predetermination is implicit and Donald Trump has won a 2nd word successful the White House. The adjacent respective months—and possibly years—will beryllium spent analyzing what really tipped this election, but we astatine WIRED Politics Lab person a theory: Elon Musk. Throughout the predetermination season, and particularly successful the homestretch, Musk has utilized his power and platform to effort to signifier the results. Today, Leah sits down with Vittoria Elliott and Timothy Marchman to sermon if it worked.

Leah Feiger is @LeahFeiger. Vittoria Elliott is @telliotter. Tim Marchman is @timmarchman. Write to america astatine politicslab@WIRED.com. Be definite to subscribe to the WIRED Politics Lab newsletter here.

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Transcript

Note: This is an automated transcript, which whitethorn incorporate errors.

Donald Trump [Archival audio]: Well, I privation to convey you each precise much. This is great. These are our friends. We person thousands of friends successful this unthinkable movement.

Leah Feiger: Donald Trump has won a 2nd word successful the White House. He declared his triumph successful the aboriginal hours of Wednesday morning, from his run office successful West Palm Beach, Florida.

Donald Trump [Archival audio]: Frankly, this was, I believe, the top governmental question of each time. There's ne'er been thing similar this successful this country, and possibly beyond.

Leah Feiger: The triumph was decisive, astir shockingly so. Many of america are inactive figuring retired the large origin that pushed the state hard to the right. Here astatine WIRED however, we person a mentation and we've been reporting connected him for a while. Elon Musk.

Donald Trump [Archival audio]: Who did you say?

[Archival audio]: Elon.

Donald Trump [Archival audio]: Oh, fto maine archer you. We person a caller star. A prima is born, Elon.

Leah Feiger: This is WIRED Politics Lab, a amusement astir however tech is changing politics. I'm Leah Feiger, the Senior Politics Editor astatine WIRED. As we discussed connected the amusement a fewer weeks ago, Elon jumped into the governmental speech this rhythm successful a large way, endorsing Trump, joining him astatine rallies, and putting a batch of wealth down him, implicit a 100 cardinal dollars. Did his power marque the quality for Trump, and what happens now? Joining maine contiguous to speech astir each of this and much is WIRED's Director of Science, Politics and Security, Tim Marchman. Hey, Tim.

Tim Marchman: Hey, gladsome to beryllium here.

Leah Feiger: Glad you're present too. Also joining, is WIRED Senior Reporter, Vittoria Elliott. Hey, Tori.

Vittoria Elliott: Hey, Leah.

Leah Feiger: Quick check-in guys. How are you some doing?

Vittoria Elliott: I don't cognize what time it is.

Tim Marchman: I truly request to conscionable spell to the parkland and work a Victorian novel, oregon play shuffleboard oregon something.

Vittoria Elliott: That sounds great. Honestly, I privation idiosyncratic would prescribe maine immoderate seaside time, similar they utilized to.

Leah Feiger: Instead of seaside clip and alternatively of speechmaking a Victorian caller successful the park, we should conscionable speech astir Elon Musk. Right? That besides sounds incredibly amusive to me.

Tim Marchman: I deliberation we're going to beryllium talking astir Elon Musk for the adjacent 4 years. I, for one, can't wait.

Leah Feiger: Let's get into it. So, the large question to me, and I deliberation to astir apt each of us, is did Elon Musk marque this happen? Is helium responsible, oregon astatine slightest rather responsible, precise responsible, mostly liable for this Trump victory? What bash you think?

Vittoria Elliott: I don't deliberation that helium made it hap each his own. I deliberation we person seen a batch of demographic shifts successful the groups that enactment oregon consciousness aligned with the Republican Party, oregon astatine slightest with Donald Trump. But I decidedly deliberation determination are precise invaluable sectors of the colonisation that Musk did motivate.

Leah Feiger: Tim, where's your caput here?

Tim Marchman: I would really disagree a small spot with Tori, and I don't deliberation determination was astir apt a measurable interaction from what Musk did, due to the fact that the happening that Musk brings supra each other is this overwhelming attraction vortex. He is constant, he's ubiquitous, helium is non-stop, helium is pushing 1,000 things astatine immoderate 1 time, and helium commands attraction arsenic the richest antheral successful the world. That is besides existent of Donald Trump. Donald Trump upends accepted laws of electoral authorities due to the fact that helium is simply a personage of long-standing, and helium knows however to manipulate the quality cycle. So, portion determination was surely worth to what Musk did, and I wouldn't accidental it was worthless oregon thing similar that, successful presumption of attributing circumstantial demos oregon could a governmental idiosyncratic quantify however overmuch helium was worthy the polls? I deliberation that would beryllium truly tricky to do, due to the fact that if he's a 100 retired of 100 connected the getting attraction and driving attraction to things scale, truthful is Trump. You can't person much than the maximum. So, that's wherever I wonderment if helium truly had an effect. Where I would accidental his astir important interaction astir apt was in, I consciousness similar it's becoming a cliche, but creating a support operation for different people, particularly different tech leaders, to travel retired successful enactment of Trump. Which adjacent arsenic precocious arsenic successful the summer, it was reasonably rare. There was a batch of hesitancy to truly travel retired full-throated arsenic MAGA. I deliberation erstwhile Musk did, that allowed a batch of different radical too.

Leah Feiger: He really, truly came retired though. I mean, I don't cognize if I wholly hold with you about, you can't spell bigger than the higher, etc. Yes, Trump had the audience, helium had the radical that were astir to prevarication down astatine his feet. But Musk brought successful an wholly caller population. He has implicit 200 cardinal followers connected X. He runs and owns X. He has acceptable those algorithms. We're looking astatine thing wholly different.

Vittoria Elliott: But I deliberation to adhd to that, I don't deliberation it's conscionable a support operation for Tech CEOs to funnel their wealth to Trump. Silicon Valley has had a libertarian, right-leaning strain for a truly agelong time. But I deliberation also, determination mightiness person been radical successful that abstraction of achromatic men instrumentality basal that Musk truly does cultivate, that evidently tin beryllium a spot much divers than that but that is simply a batch of it, who whitethorn person again felt Trump curious. But surely felt, I think, much energized for him erstwhile Musk was onside. Talking to voters successful Pennsylvania, radical truly were like, "We person the smartest antheral successful the satellite connected our team. We person the inventor of each of these unthinkable things." I deliberation it besides offered, portion it whitethorn person lowered Musk successful the estimation of immoderate of the radical connected the left, I deliberation successful galore ways Musk was capable to usage a small spot of the clout that helium had near to marque it look similar Donald Trump was truly really bringing the champion minds onto his side.

Leah Feiger: So, obviously, Tori, you were successful Pennsylvania a batch this month. You're determination close now. You watched each of this spell down. You were besides astatine the archetypal rally that Trump brought Musk retired to successful Butler, Pennsylvania, successful aboriginal October. Talk to america specifically astir the radical that you were chatting to. Was determination anyone who was like, "Oh, I was sour connected Trump, but past Musk entered?" Or was it conscionable an additional? What are we talking here?

Vittoria Elliott: It was an additional. But it was really, I deliberation it was similar radical were really, truly stoked. I deliberation they felt that it added much legitimacy to Trump, to person idiosyncratic who the media and different leaders person built up implicit the amended portion of astir 2 decades astatine this point, coming successful and saying, "Trump is the close person and this is the mode forward." I deliberation my consciousness is there's a existent frustration, particularly with younger voters, astir the idea, the aboriginal doesn't look arsenic agleam arsenic they were promised it was going to be. One happening Musk does with his speech of abstraction question and electrical cars, is marque the aboriginal dependable exciting, successful a mode that I deliberation is appealing to people. So, that was decidedly the vibe that I got from radical successful Butler, that they were excited that helium was there, they were excited astir his ideas. Again, that they felt it lent their campaigner a batch of legitimacy to person idiosyncratic truthful astute and truthful accomplished siding with him.

Leah Feiger: Let's get into his existent battalion that helium dumped millions and millions of dollars into, America Pack. How large of an interaction bash you deliberation that it had successful plaything states? What did they bash with the money, the ads and videos they ran? I'm funny for each of your thoughts here.

Tim Marchman: Well, helium donated astatine slightest $118 million. There are much fiscal disclosures to come, truthful we'll yet find retired however overmuch successful total. As acold arsenic the Get Out to Vote cognition that helium had subcontracted to him, arsenic acold arsenic I tin archer the wealth was fundamentally acceptable connected fire. I don't deliberation it did thing speech from incur astatine slightest 1 lawsuit. One tin surmise that determination are going to beryllium much coming from workers.

Leah Feiger: I mean, we person to evidently speech astir each of our WIRED reporting here. Very arrogant of our squad and our beauteous freelancer, Jake Lahut. But implicit this past week, WIRED's been reporting connected conditions that were really, truly extreme. Canvassers said that they were driven astir and seat-less and seatbelt-less, U-Haul fans, they weren't paid connected time, they were forced to enactment sick. It sounds similar specified a mess, and yet present we are evidently with a Trump victory.

Tim Marchman: Yeah. But Elon doesn't miss the money. He has $250 cardinal connected paper, and it's hard to get your caput astir what an inconsequential sum $100 positive cardinal is comparative to that. I unrecorded successful Philadelphia, truthful I was getting immoderate mailers from America Pack. They were beauteous erratic and weirdly targeted, and it doesn't look similar it was overmuch of a genius cognition determination either. But I don't deliberation immoderate of it overmuch mattered 1 mode oregon the other. There's world probe that truly casts uncertainty connected the efficacy of doorway knocking and calling and sending radical things, that doesn't transportation people. What it does is possibly link a run with radical who wouldn't cognize however to vote. So, adjacent if that wealth didn't get truly tangible results upfront, that's inactive 1 thing. But it goes backmost to that constituent astir attention. Elon Musk is personally pulling retired $100 cardinal dollars positive retired of his pouch and putting it connected the array to enactment Donald Trump, sends a immense message. Of course, yet to him, what that astir apt is is an concern successful influence. Donald Trump is somebody, if you springiness him $100 cardinal dollars, he's going to person a bully array for you astatine Mar-a-Lago. He's going to instrumentality your telephone calls and he's going to unfastened the doors of the White House to you. So, if we're looking astatine it successful the constrictive consciousness of like, was this optimized businesslike spending? Is this what a money-ball run would've done? No, I deliberation helium could person flushed it down the toilet and gotten astir arsenic overmuch retired of it arsenic helium did. In presumption of it furthering his docket and truly irrevocably tying him to Trump and to MAGA, and signaling that helium was genuinely each in, yeah, it did that. Because Trump could person lost, and if Trump had mislaid determination perchance could person been consequences for Musk.

Leah Feiger: We'd beryllium having a antithetic speech close now. I mean truthful overmuch of it did consciousness similar a stunt portion it was happening too. The cardinal dollar per time stunt, that was specified a quality grab. That was a header grab, that was an SEO grab. Obviously his efforts were super, ace antithetic from the Harris campaigns, successful ways that I americium definite that we'll proceed unpacking implicit the weeks and months ahead. But Tori, you created a timeline earlier this week that we published, that truly tracked from the full past period of Elon Musk. What's your takeaway from that? What tin we glean from everything that helium was doing, Tweeting, sharing, donating, each the mode down to Peanut the squirrel, what's our period takeaway?

Vittoria Elliott: Oh, my God. You said earlier this week and I was like, this week? That can't beryllium right. You tin presumption a batch of what Musk was doing implicit the past period arsenic really... Expert calculation astir that, peculiarly astir the authorities of Pennsylvania, which was the plaything state. So, showing up astatine the Butler rally connected October 5th, was specified a large thing. Not lone due to the fact that it was occidental Pennsylvania, which is simply a cardinal country of the state, but besides due to the fact that that is wherever the archetypal assassination effort against Donald Trump occurred. So, it was this large symbolic thing, and that's wherever Musk debuted his in-person enactment for Trump. I deliberation that was extraordinarily calculated. The information that helium committed to walk $45 cardinal a period connected the America Pack erstwhile helium archetypal endorsed Trump. He didn't needfully walk that successful those trenches oregon whatever, but it was astir grabbing the headlines and again, showing however overmuch helium believed successful it. I mean, this is simply a antheral who promotes meme coins connected his platform. If you deliberation astir it successful that way, he's precise bully astatine this, driving abbreviated bursts of attraction astir stuff. I deliberation towards the extremity of the election, likewise with the $1 cardinal giveaway, that's thing that generates existent headlines time aft day, radical are watching it. They're wondering wherever that idiosyncratic is going to be. For the radical that had the accidental to get that cardinal dollars, which was lone radical successful plaything states, you're generating interest, you're generating attention, you're signing the petition. Suddenly helium has the attraction for this happening and that tin inch into thing else. I deliberation that's truly what we saw. Even down to the Peanut the squirrel thing. He spent the past play earlier the election, we thought helium would beryllium out, we thought helium would beryllium stumping. Instead helium was determination inside, Tweeting astir a squirrel named Peanut that was net famous. I deliberation connected October 30th, it was confiscated from its owners by carnal power successful the authorities of New York, and euthanized due to the fact that it besides lived with a raccoon that had been adopted and the authorities said it could perchance person rabies. The full play was conscionable bombarded with memes astir Peanut. He made it governmental truthful quickly. It was, "This is what happens erstwhile you unrecorded successful a Democratic state. This is what they'll do. Why are they doing this and not going aft Epstein?" That is each shit-posting, but truly attraction grabbing.

Leah Feiger: No, I mean it was a play for the done enactment of the election. We talked astir Elon Musk each azygous day, what helium was contributing, what helium was talking about, what helium was doing well, what helium was doing poorly and his spheres of influence. Let's instrumentality a speedy interruption and we'll beryllium close backmost with much connected Musk's power implicit the 2024 predetermination results, and however helium tapped into the Manosphere. Welcome backmost to WIRED Politics Lab. Let's speech for a small spot astir Musk's different large root of powerfulness and influence, his online beingness and the online level that helium owns. How did helium usage X during the past mates of months and what effect bash we deliberation that it had?

Vittoria Elliott: He super-powered Trump talking points that were astatine champion mis-informative, astatine worst disinformation, peculiarly talking points astir undocumented immigrants being capable to vote, and Democrats wanting to springiness undocumented immigrants citizenship to crook each plaything states blue.

Leah Feiger: No. He had conspiracy theories coming retired of everywhere, genuinely hitting each azygous large talking point. He was sharing them with specified urgency and with specified speed, and the mode that his algorithm works they were conscionable popped up successful my idiosyncratic provender constantly.

Vittoria Elliott: All the time. I mean, again, I constituent retired to virtually everyone, adjacent earlier helium purchased the platform, Musk was a Twitter ace user. He was 1 of, I think, the 10 astir followed radical connected the platform. So, adjacent if the algorithm was not weighted towards him, which there's suspicion to judge that it is, helium would inactive person unthinkable reach.

Tim Marchman: It's truthful overpowering. I deliberation of it similar a drone swarm attack, wherever you conscionable nonstop retired inexpensive drones and you nonstop retired endless quantities of them and you overwhelm aerial defense. Before the break, we were talking astir Peanut the squirrel. Do you cognize what Peanut the squirrel overwhelmed connected X? The merchandise of audio of Jeffrey Epstein describing Donald Trump arsenic his champion person of 10 years.

Vittoria Elliott: Wild.

Tim Marchman: Talking astir however Trump would slumber with his friend's wives. That's not to accidental that helium didn't person his ain ties to radical similar Bill Clinton, due to the fact that helium did. But conscionable done sheer measurement of nonsense, he's capable to instrumentality an contented similar that, ain it and go the protagonist of it. It's fascinating.

Vittoria Elliott: One of the Peanut memes was virtually saying, "Why bash Democrats person wealth to euthanize a squirrel, but not to analyse Epstein's lawsuit list?" It is just, you can't marque it up.

Leah Feiger: Full circle. Terrible. Of course, simultaneous to each of this, he's getting retired the vote. He has implicit 200 cardinal followers, similar we said, connected X alone. I'll ne'er hide this, this honestly changed what the predetermination looked similar for me. It was successful aboriginal October, and Musk was Tweeting out, telling radical to registry to ballot successful Pennsylvania, and successful Arizona. Then including the nexus for elector registration. We were looking astatine analytics, and I deliberation it was thing similar 30 cardinal radical saw these posts, and 1 cardinal radical clicked the links. That is truthful galore people. Do you cognize however galore Harris canvassers and doorknockers determination had to be, oregon influencers, that the run is subcontracting successful bid to adjacent benignant of vie with that? So, helium has an onslaught of conspiracy theories and boosting perfectly bananas radical connected the level that were kicked disconnected years agone and past welcomed backmost on. And besides getting retired the vote. It was this trifecta of terribleness, and effectiveness.

Vittoria Elliott: Yeah. Well, the Center for Countering Digital Hate recovered that Musk's Tweets from the time helium endorsed Donald Trump until October 25th, reached implicit 7 cardinal views. That to get that benignant of content you would need, successful advertisement buys you would request to wage $24 cardinal to get that benignant of scope connected X, if you were conscionable getting that scope via ads. He is this truly priceless communications asset.

Tim Marchman: I conscionable work an oral past of the New York Post. It's a large book. It's called Paper of Wreckage. I'd urge it to anybody, it's precise entertaining. Near the extremity of the publication idiosyncratic calculates that Rupert Murdoch astir apt mislaid a cardinal dollars. Nominal, they figured astir 3 billion, adjusted for inflation, connected the New York Post each year, [inaudible 00:19:07]. Fox, astatine the aforesaid time, was throwing disconnected a cardinal dollars successful gross each year. He made it up elsewhere successful his empire. In a batch of ways, that's however I've been reasoning astir Musk, is conscionable arsenic a precise accepted media baron who owns a megaphone and uses the megaphone.

Leah Feiger: The caller Rupert Murdoch.

Tim Marchman: Yeah. He's a self-styled futurist, a Tony Stark, each that. But he's besides a precise acquainted figure, close retired of 1 of those Victorian novels

Leah Feiger: That you desperately privation to beryllium speechmaking on-

Tim Marchman: In the parkland reading.

Leah Feiger: ... a parkland somewhere. Yes, soon.

Tim Marchman: We cognize this benignant of figure. Just idiosyncratic who owns a wide media outlet and uses it to beforehand his interests. That is precisely what you're describing there.

Vittoria Elliott: For a communicative that we published yesterday astir however Musk has, by rolling backmost each of these protections astatine what was formerly Twitter, he's a flown screen for a batch of different tech companies that person besides rolled backmost their protections, but not rather arsenic violently. One of the erstwhile Twitter employees I spoke to for the portion said, "You know, Musk is simply a astute antheral fundamentally. Not astir everything, but astir a batch of things." We person a agelong past successful this state of truly affluent radical owning newspapers, similar Jeff Bezos and the Washington Post. But Musk realizes that societal media is media and the amended play if you privation to power the speech is not needfully to ain a paper, but to ain the platform.

Leah Feiger: Obviously we've each been talking astir this successful our radical Slacks and person been for immoderate time, but the elephant successful the country is the online bro civilization and the Manosphere, and the podcast bros that person truly shaped this election. Musk is evidently a subordinate of this cadre and has go 1 of its leaders. Talk to maine astir immoderate of these views and however you guys deliberation that this has impacted what we're seeing present close now.

Vittoria Elliott: Oh, damn. I person truthful galore feelings. I deliberation it's peculiarly telling that alternatively of being retired connected the run way connected Monday, Musk spent astir 3 hours successful a workplace successful Texas with Joe Rogan. I deliberation that should bespeak to each of america however important idiosyncratic similar Joe Rogan, who was hesitant with his endorsement, but has decidedly been a pillar connected the much acceptable extremity of the Manosphere, to deliberation astir however important helium is arsenic a fig for that community. Young men, young disaffected men, are not precisely the astir reliable voting demographic. So, to me, really waiting until the past infinitesimal makes a batch of sense, due to the fact that I deliberation if that endorsement had travel retired successful August, it would've been truly casual for that to suffer steam. But you're talking astir a radical of radical for whom that benignant of sustained governmental engagement is not truly their vibe. But to person it travel retired the nighttime earlier the election, truthful it's really a much contiguous prime disconnected of the backmost of that endorsement, makes a batch of consciousness to me. I deliberation erstwhile we're talking astir this, we're talking astir the Manosphere. Some of the views that Musk has parroted from its darker depths person been anti-diversity, equity inclusion initiatives, this accent connected childbearing and child-rearing. Musk has astatine slightest 11 children that we cognize of, with astatine slightest 3 antithetic women. This precise pro-natalist view, this presumption that radical should beryllium having large families, that they should beryllium having children, and implicit successful that, that women should beryllium child-rearing, and that women's work is to usage their assemblage for creating children and for the perpetuating of the quality species.

Tim Marchman: When I deliberation of the Manosphere, I deliberation Andrew Tate, an accused intersexual trafficker who overtly tells sexually frustrated young men that women's bodies are determination for their use, and purports to springiness them instructions connected however to sexually enslave them for their ain intersexual restitution and to marque money. Everything is downstream of that. From nonstop Tate imitators, to radical who are mode connected the acold different extremity of the Manosphere and are much oregon little respectable, they're inactive swimming successful the aforesaid water. We've each seen the statistic astir however for galore large, analyzable societal reasons that we don't afloat recognize yet, young men, a batch of them, they aren't having sex, they aren't going to college, they don't person friends. There's a large excavation of these radical who, disaffected astir doesn't get astatine it, they're chopped disconnected from each this. They're chopped disconnected from a rounded life.

Leah Feiger: The podcast bros bring them backmost into the light.

Tim Marchman: Bring them into this. The unifying thread present is not conscionable a generalized misogyny, but a presumption of women arsenic tools to beryllium utilized by and for men. When you brace that with an accidental to ballot against a woman, to ballot against a pistillate who Taylor Swift has supported, to ballot against a pistillate who's promising to reconstruct entree to abortion, it truly does marque a batch of sense. Like candidly, a batch of the crushed I thought Harris had a truly bully changeable and I was leaning towards reasoning she was going to win, I was feeling comparatively definite wrong the confines of a 50/50 contention that she had the marginal advantages. One of the large ones was just, she was looking to crook retired older women, precise reliable voters. He was looking to negate that vantage by getting crushed by little successful definite demographics, reducing the marginal edge. A cardinal portion of that was young men, and I didn't truly spot it. It happened. That's a governmental world that volition beryllium precise important going forward.

Leah Feiger: Do we deliberation that these online men, and by hold Elon, past really provided that important turnout that tipped the predetermination to Trump?

Tim Marchman: I wouldn't spell that far, but it's a cardinal portion of the coalition. I mean, the exit polls are inactive a small shaky. It's not similar we're looking astatine the truly elaborate ones that we're going to get erstwhile the elector files are released. But, yeah. That seems to beryllium a cardinal portion of assembling a conjugation for Trump. There was a large crook among Latino men. Young men voted for Harris, but it was conscionable by a mates of points. There was a displacement determination and determination was a displacement successful immoderate areas of up to, I deliberation successful the bid of 25 points successful immoderate plaything states. It was real.

Leah Feiger: It was massive.

Tim Marchman: Yeah. I don't deliberation it's arsenic neat and casual arsenic saying that they provided the margin. You tin look astatine different groups and property it to them. But they were a large portion of it. There's nary uncertainty that the Manosphere and straight pandering to this precise circumstantial misogynistic ideology worked. I mean, and that's truly horrifying to deliberation about.

Vittoria Elliott: Well, and I deliberation erstwhile we're talking astir Latino voters oregon 1 of immoderate background, a batch of cultures passim the satellite person patriarchy, a strain of patriarchy, baked into their benignant of conservatism. I deliberation pulling connected that is simply a reliable mode to get men crossed demographics to consciousness similar there's thing successful it for them. So, I decidedly hold that determination was decidedly an accent connected men voting. Scott Pressler, who founded the Early Vote Action Group, which was funded by Musk, moved to Pennsylvania and dedicated astir of this twelvemonth to turning retired Pennsylvania. Was Tweeting about, "Men enactment successful line." Stephen Miller was besides talking astir men-

Leah Feiger: Charlie Kirk.

Vittoria Elliott: ... voting.

Leah Feiger: This was the thing.

Vittoria Elliott: Exactly.

Tim Marchman: With each of that said, I don't privation to fto guys my property disconnected the hook. Trump's halfway demo, the 1 that won him the election, was Gen X men. That's it.

Leah Feiger: 100%.

Tim Marchman: It's middle-aged achromatic men. That's his halfway constituency.

Leah Feiger: To bring this backmost to Trump for a moment, Trump loved this. Trump perfectly loved watching each of these influencers and podcast bros and Manosphere types, travel implicit themselves to invitation him connected and station their clips connected TikTok and X and marque the rounds. It was everywhere. It was truthful intelligibly a delightful portion of this run to him, and 1 that they intelligibly did precise effectively. I'm inactive truly playing retired conscionable however successful immoderate ways grateful Trump is to Elon Musk for each of this elevation too. Elon watched the results travel successful with Trump. Have we ever seen thing similar this before, successful presumption of relationships successful that way, heading consecutive into the White House?

Tim Marchman: I can't deliberation of a truly nonstop parallel. One of the things that truly worries maine astir it is Elon Musk is simply a large defence contractor.

Leah Feiger: Yeah.

Tim Marchman: The connection fascism has been thrown astir a lot, but astatine its astir basic, fascism is the merger of authorities and firm power. We present person a large defence contractor who has an app that's connected hundreds of millions of people's phones, who owns outer technology, who owns rocketry exertion that's captious to the US, who owns cars that are signaling 24/7, millions of them connected the roads. He's idiosyncratic who seems tipped to beryllium astatine astir a shadiness president, and astatine slightest a cardinal advisor successful the White House, volition person a batch of accidental implicit defense, nationalist security. That is really... You can't truly speech capable astir however worrisome that is.

Vittoria Elliott: I mean, also, tin I conscionable accidental that I don't deliberation we framework Musk arsenic a defence contractor enough, because-

Leah Feiger: I deliberation that's true.

Vittoria Elliott: ... similar SpaceX and Tesla, we're like, he's this magical inventor. It's like, no. He's a defence contractor.

Tim Marchman: He's a payment case. He's suckling connected the nationalist teat.

Vittoria Elliott: He's a payment king, and helium besides is simply a defence contractor. If a president was watching the results travel successful with the CEO of Raytheon, radical volition beryllium losing their shit.

Leah Feiger: Absolutely. Let's instrumentality different speedy break, and erstwhile we travel back, what happens now? Welcome backmost to WIRED Politics Lab. We're going to skip Conspiracy of the Week this week. Instead, let's rotation this guardant a small spot and speech astir what we tin expect to spot successful 2025 and beyond. So, Tori and Tim, what happens present for Elon Musk? What's his expected instrumentality connected concern here?

Vittoria Elliott: Well, to commencement off, the New York Times did an absorbing investigation that showed that conscionable successful national contracts, we're not adjacent talking astir thing beyond that, conscionable successful contracts his companies person gotten from the national government, Elon Musk's companies person gotten 2.2 cardinal plus. So, I deliberation we're going to spot much and much wealth being funneled towards Elon's companies. Areas of the authorities that were erstwhile nationalist are going to progressively beryllium privatized, often to his benefit. I deliberation Blue Origin's ne'er going to spot different NASA contract. I deliberation peculiarly with his Government Efficiency Commission that helium says he's going to head, I deliberation we're going to astir apt spot a batch of overlap betwixt that and immoderate of the goals of Project 2025, of cutting authorities employees, cutting the beingness employees who truly support the wheels turning betwixt administrations, and installing loyalists. I deliberation it's important to enactment also, erstwhile Musk took implicit X, determination was a batch of scrutiny implicit the information that employees from his different companies were being sequestered successful that acquisition to advise, to springiness method support. I would not beryllium amazed if we spot immoderate bleeding implicit successful that mode with authorities arsenic well.

Leah Feiger: Tim, what bash you think?

Tim Marchman: I deliberation we're going to spot an assertive deficiency of regulatory oversight implicit companies that are doing things similar putting computers successful people's brains, and creating ample amounts of abstraction junk that are making it hard to spot the stars. I besides deliberation that we are going to spot a gutting of the civilian service, due to the fact that Musk is utilizing the rhetoric helium utilized with Twitter and helium has utilized with different companies astir bloated, wasteful authorities spending. We each cognize this, but the authorities does not really walk each that overmuch comparative to its standard successful a discretionary fashion. The authorities spends wealth connected defense, which Donald Trump is not going to cut. It spends wealth connected societal information and Medicare, and involvement connected the debt. Everything other is beauteous trivial. There's not truly a immense accidental to chopped retired trillions of dollars successful wasteful spending. What determination is is astir apt going to beryllium an accidental to look astatine thing similar the Forestry Service and say, "Look astatine these loaded authorities bureaucrats sitting determination watching trees."

Leah Feiger: I mean, similar goodbye National Parks question mark? There's-

Tim Marchman: If you privation to speech astir radical who are making reasonably humble sums to bash things that are important for society, I deliberation they should beryllium precise disquieted that their jobs are astatine risk. I deliberation it's a precise realistic anticipation that that could wholly disrupt the quality of the authorities to relation astatine its core, basal responsibilities, overseeing nationalist lands, upwind monitoring, you sanction it.

Leah Feiger: What authorities relation bash you deliberation Musk is angling for and what does that mean for the aboriginal of tech and tech regulation?

Vittoria Elliott: I don't cognize that Musk is idiosyncratic who wants a circumstantial role.

Leah Feiger: You don't spot him sitting extracurricular the Oval Office, main of staff?

Vittoria Elliott: No, I think-

Leah Feiger: I mean, I don't either, to beryllium clear.

Vittoria Elliott: I think-

Leah Feiger: He wants influence, helium wants power.

Vittoria Elliott: He wants influence. He wants to beryllium an advisor. That's because, I don't deliberation helium would ever truly privation to, quote/unquote, enactment for Trump. Both helium and Trump are radical who conceive of themselves arsenic alpha males, apical dogs. They some are radical who privation to drawback attention. I don't spot either of them being consenting to subjugate their egos for the different person. So, I comprehend that helium would astir apt beryllium much similar a floating advisor, doing what he's done with a batch of his companies. Which is like, he's like, "I'm going to beryllium an adept connected abstraction now. I'm going to beryllium an adept connected cars now. I'm going to beryllium an adept connected societal media and escaped code now."

Tim Marchman: For each the reasons you conscionable outlined, this is wherefore I deliberation the 1 happening I'm definite of is that determination is going to beryllium a nasty and melodramatic fallout. There is nary mode 2 egos of this size tin coexist. These are 2 truly thin-skinned, petty, catty men who similar to instrumentality to societal media to accidental atrocious things astir radical they don't like. So, if we are going to get thing other retired of this dystopian and horrifying dynamic, we are going to get the nastiest, meanest posts of each clip from these 2 men astir each other. I would accidental wrong the adjacent mates of years. We'll look backmost successful a mates of years and spot if I was right.

Leah Feiger: I'm truthful excited for the fallout. For the election, I would've argued that Trump needed Musk much than Musk needed Trump. Now we're astatine possibly a relation reversal situation. There's going to person to beryllium a small spot of kowtowing, I'd assume. What bash you guys think?

Vittoria Elliott: I mean, I deliberation Musk is consenting to demure to him successful definite ways, it seems. But again, I deliberation if Donald Trump believes that Elon Musk is ever going to beryllium his employee, he's got different happening coming.

Tim Marchman: Yeah. I deliberation the dynamic changes wholly due to the fact that the information is that Trump has made wide helium volition maltreatment the powers of the national authorities astatine will, and the Supreme Court, has made wide that nary 1 tin bash thing astir that. So, helium has each the leverage. If they person a falling out, if Musk doesn't privation to bash thing Trump doesn't privation him to do, each of a abrupt helium tin go a precise zealous regulator of this chap who has a batch of involvement with the national government, and needs friends successful Washington, that tin crook a dime precise easily. So, successful the bigger strategical picture, you wonderment if Musk hasn't conscionable delivered himself into the hands of a antheral who has turned connected each 1 of his allies implicit the years successful a precise nasty fashion.

Leah Feiger: But possibly Musk thinks he's going to beryllium different.

Vittoria Elliott: "But he'll beryllium antithetic with me."

Leah Feiger: We're going to see. At the precise least, I americium truthful gladsome to beryllium figuring this each retired and discussing it with the 2 of you, and the remainder of our beauteous WIRED Politics team. Shout retired to the remainder of them for truly keeping america going this week. That's it for today. Thank you truthful much, Tori and Tim, for joining us.

Vittoria Elliott: Thank you, Leah.

Tim Marchman: Thanks for having me.

Leah Feiger: Thanks for listening to WIRED Politics Lab. If you similar what you heard today, marque definite to travel the amusement and springiness america 5 stars. We besides person a newsletter, which Makena Kelly writes each week. The nexus to the newsletter and the WIRED reporting we mentioned contiguous are successful the amusement notes. If you'd similar to get successful interaction with america with immoderate questions, comments, oregon amusement suggestions, please, delight constitute to america astatine politicslab@WIRED.com. That's politicslab@WIRED.com. We're truthful excited to perceive from you. This occurrence was produced by Sheena Ozaki. Pran Bandi is our workplace engineer. Will Purton mixed this episode. Steven Valentino is our enforcement producer. Chris Bannon is Global Head of Audio astatine Condé Nast, and I'm your host, Leah Feiger. We'll beryllium backmost with a caller occurrence adjacent week. Thanks for listening.