No Dogs or Cats Were Harmed In the Making of This Post-Debate Podcast

WIRED’s Makena Kelly and Tim Marchman articulation Leah to sermon the memorable moments, the policies and, of course, the conspiracies that came up successful Tuesday’s statesmanlike debate.

Leah Feiger is @LeahFeiger. Makena Kelly is @kellymakena. Tim Marchman is @timmarchman. Write to america astatine politicslab@WIRED.com. Be definite to subscribe to the WIRED Politics Lab newsletter here.

Mentioned this week:
Trump Fans Spread Debate Conspiracy About Microphone Earrings by David Gilbert
What to Expect successful the Trump-Harris Presidential Debate and How to Watch It by David Gilbert
A Visual Guide to the Influencers Shaping the 2024 Election by Makena Kelly

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Transcript

Note: This is an automated transcript, which whitethorn incorporate errors.

Leah Feiger: This is WIRED Politics Lab, a amusement astir however tech is changing politics. I'm Leah Feiger, the elder authorities exertion astatine WIRED. Today connected the show, the archetypal statement betwixt Vice President Kamala Harris and erstwhile president Donald Trump was past nighttime and WIRED Politics Lab decided to grounds our occurrence close aft it ended. The statement was frankly, reasonably unhinged. Trump peddled perfectly absurd conspiracies and Harris had a fig of memeable moments. It was a acold outcry from June's statement betwixt Trump and President Joe Biden, but some candidates went each successful connected appealing to their bases. Did they succeed? Joining maine connected the amusement to speech astir each of this are my colleagues, Tim Marchman, manager of politics, security, and subject astatine WIRED.

Tim Marchman: Thank you for having me.

Leah Feiger: And elder WIRED reporter, Makena Kelly.

Makena Kelly: It's bully to beryllium back.

Leah Feiger: How are you guys doing? It is truthful late. What did we conscionable watch?

Tim Marchman: I truly consciousness beauteous stupefied. It was beyond what I anticipated.

Makena Kelly: With everything that Trump brought up related to the conspiracies, which I cognize that we're going to get into.

Leah Feiger: Oh, yes.

Makena Kelly: This full statement to maine felt arsenic if, I deliberation it was conscionable similar travel to life, the GOP surviving successful this implicit alternate reality. Like everything having to bash with those conspiracies, everything having to bash with the cats and each this stuff. I don't know, it conscionable seemed similar it's gotten to Trump and it's invaded, this encephalon rot has wholly invaded the Republican Party successful a mode that it's showing up connected the statement stage.

Leah Feiger: Something that we're going to person to get into contiguous is, does that truly matter, and is that really that antithetic from what we've been seeing for the past small bit? Let's commencement disconnected with Harris. In the weeks starring up to this moment, she's been riding the precocious of being the Democratic nominee. The DNC was her triumph lap, and if you were watching CNN oregon MSNBC tonight, this statement was besides her triumph lap. But there's besides been a batch of chatter astir however this honeymoon could beryllium over. Tim, post-debate, wherever bash you deliberation Harris stands close now?

Tim Marchman: It's hard to accidental due to the fact that it was a small spot of an antithetic performance, and these precise overmuch are performances. She astir came disconnected to maine similar a antagonistic punching boxer who's conscionable luring her hostile into making mistakes and tiring himself retired and doing anserine stuff, but being precise blimpish with her ain boxing.

Leah Feiger: I similar that.

Tim Marchman: If I tin extrapolate from what I saw connected the TV, it seems similar the program did what it was intended to do. It got Trump truly rattled, disconnected his game, impulsive, saying bizarre things that I'm definite a batch of viewers person nary framework of notation for. But to the grade that a batch of the punditry starring into this was astir however she needed to specify herself and specify her differences with Biden. I didn't truly consciousness she did that. There were points wherever I felt similar she was astir moving done overmuch much energetically and eloquently and astir apt efficaciously the aforesaid talking points Biden was struggling to usage successful the archetypal debate.

Leah Feiger: I would hold with that. A important portion of her responses felt similar they were fodder for a run ad. They felt similar they were clipable 10 second, 15 2nd viral moments that are astir apt going to play truly good successful the coming days and weeks. But if that was the constituent of the debate, past possibly she did succeed. Did she really person to separate herself that overmuch from Biden successful these moments? Was this the signifier for that, I guess?

Tim Marchman: There was astatine slightest 1 truly important infinitesimal wherever she did that erstwhile she was talking astir abortion. It's unimaginable that-

Makena Kelly: Oh, yes.

Tim Marchman: ...Joe Biden would speech successful thing similar that idiosyncratic and vivid and compelling and unapologetic way. I'm definite she could person gone a batch further. I'm definite a batch of radical would similar her to person gone a batch further. But that was astir arsenic forceful arsenic I deliberation we've ever seen a statesmanlike campaigner beryllium connected the topic, that I tin retrieve astatine least.

Leah Feiger: It was 1 of the biggest, if not the biggest argumentation moments of the debate.

Kamala Harris [Archival audio]: The authorities and Donald Trump surely should not beryllium telling a pistillate what to bash with her body.

Leah Feiger: She really managed to accidental the connection termination aggregate times, which for me, aft watching Joe Biden unreal that the connection didn't really successful information exist, was illuminating to accidental the least. But again, this was besides her taxable and Trump peddled the nine-month conspiracy. When asked astir talking termination bans with JD Vance, helium said helium didn't sermon it with him.

David Muir [Archival audio]: Your moving mate JD Vance has said that you would veto if it did travel to your desk.

Donald Trump [Archival audio]: Well, I didn't sermon it with JD successful each fairness.

Leah Feiger: It was incredibly strange. What did you guys deliberation astir each of that? The JD Vance of it each unsocial was amazing.

Makena Kelly: Trump's presumption connected the termination contented hasn't changed successful years. He says the aforesaid happening implicit and implicit again. The conspiracies mightiness beryllium a small different, but it's truly getting astatine the bosom of, I helped get escaped of Roe v. Wade truthful it tin spell to the states and the states tin decide. Well, a batch of the states person decided now, Kansas for 1 is an example. That statement didn't enactment successful those states. This evidently doesn't look similar a winning contented for him and his squad hasn't been capable to pivot into immoderate different argument.

Leah Feiger: No, they surely haven't figured retired a mode to grip this effectively. That was truthful wide astatine the debate. Makena, earlier each of this though, you were pursuing what a batch of influencers and Silicon Valley fans of Trump were saying astir however Trump was doing during the statement and during the statement lead-up arsenic well. What are present immoderate of the posts that you are seeing online arsenic a absorption to the debate? What are radical saying?

Makena Kelly: First off, truthful galore of the creators that we talked astir astatine the DNC each got these PR packages from Kamala, which was popcorn and candy and cups and each of this worldly that said Hotties for Harris.

Leah Feiger: I'm sorry, I hatred that. I hatred that. Is that atrocious that I hatred that?

Makena Kelly: No. For me, I did personally consciousness similar it was a small strange, mostly due to the fact that it conscionable felt similar the extremity crippled of the brandification of authorities of it all.

Leah Feiger: Yeah. Was it sponsored? That's truthful weird.

Makena Kelly: Yeah, it looked similar conscionable generic popcorn and jelly beans. But it inactive was really, truly unusual to spot that besides up of the statement arsenic well. CJ Pearson, who was successful our large influencer illustration that we did, helium posted and sent to maine that helium was successful the Trump warfare room, influencer warfare country and had a statement successful Philly. I tried to marque consciousness of the representation that helium sent and Jack Posobiec was there. There's a batch of radical successful this country with their laptops retired tweeting. We tin speech astir what happened with the influencers during and aft debate, but I wanted to acceptable that up archetypal to beryllium similar this was a large absorption for some the Kamala and Trump campaigns.

Leah Feiger: Absolutely.

Makena Kelly: Now, afterwards, I deliberation similar we're discussing close now, Kamala truly did a bully occupation astatine baiting Trump to get each of these phrases similar giving amerciable immigrants successful situation transgender operations.

Donald Trump [Archival audio]: Now she wants to bash transgender operations connected amerciable aliens that are successful prison.

Makena Kelly: It's fundamentally go a meme, astatine slightest among a batch of the creators that I'm utilized to pursuing and that I cognize enactment with the campaign.

Leah Feiger: Right. Obviously, the 1 that I deliberation astatine slightest caught our attraction the astir successful the WIRED authorities slack country arsenic we were watching successful disbelief, was the conspiracy and prevarication that Haitian immigrants were illegally crossing the borderline into the United States and camping retired and stealing and eating people's dogs, cats and pets.

Donald Trump [Archival audio]: They're eating the dogs. The radical that came in, they're eating the cats, they're eating the pets of the radical that unrecorded there.

Leah Feiger: This is not happening. This is successful a mode happening, but this was a talking constituent that has been bubbling up for the past 36 hours. JD Vance has been adding substance to the fire. He has been tweeting astir it. Congress. This has been each over. Trump got into it successful the debate. That was wild, you guys. That was truthful wild. It felt similar a fever dream.

Makena Kelly: The quality betwixt however it played retired online up of the statement and however it was received erstwhile Trump really said it, was wild. Because erstwhile you look astatine online, erstwhile radical were discussing each this conspiracy astir the cats and eating them and et cetera, each that, for the astir part, it was conscionable similar a joke. It seemed similar it was mostly silly amongst a batch of these creators that were posting astir it. Then conscionable to spot it taken truthful earnestly and virtually connected the statement signifier with Trump, I deliberation was the alteration of position that made everything like, what the heck is helium doing?

Tim Marchman: Yeah, I person a conspiracy mentation astir this, which is that Trump was briefed to allude to it, but enactment distant from it. Because precise aboriginal successful his archetypal statement, helium mentioned Springfield Ohio, precise pointedly wherever the conspiracy mentation says this is happening. He looked precise smug and self-satisfied arsenic helium said that. My base, the radical who are connected information social-

Leah Feiger: They'll know.

Tim Marchman: ...they cognize what's going connected successful Springfield. But helium didn't accidental anything. Then helium really started talking astir it aft Harris had baited him by mentioning the radical near his rallies early, that they were interminable and boring and repetitive. He started visibly getting beauteous aggravated and helium conscionable blurts out, he's talking astir however horrible the system is and however unspeakable post-apocalyptic America is. He says successful Springfield, helium can't bring himself to accidental it. He says successful Springfield, and past helium conscionable says, "They're eating cats. They're eating dogs." It's truthful lurid and ridiculous. Then the happening helium does aft that is, helium astir meekly says, "The radical connected the tv said their canine was taken for food." Just the astir childlike code of it. It was truly this unthinkable moment. I truly got the content that helium knew helium wasn't expected to beryllium talking astir this, I guess.

Leah Feiger: I deliberation you're right. To me, it didn't really travel disconnected arsenic childish though. It came disconnected arsenic the grandparent oregon aged comparative that you're like, grandma crook disconnected Fox News. That's not true. That's not correct. He felt precise aged successful that moment. He was rambling, helium was uncertain. I conjecture my question present though is, with each these conspiracies helium brought up again similar helium did successful the June statement with Biden, that the Democrats enactment termination aft 9 months, which is unequivocally not true. There were conscionable honestly truthful galore to adjacent get into and list. My question is, does it matter? The net was taking a lap, the wide net was thrilled. Pundits connected CNN and MSNBC were like, "This was wild. Harris trounced him, et cetera, et cetera." I don't know. This contention is not really astir who is much eloquent oregon who tin archer the information amended oregon more, and that feels a small spot naive astatine this point. It's really astir who tin mobilize their base. The question is going to beryllium if Trump successfully mobilized his basal with his litany of conspiracies tonight. Was helium convincing?

Tim Marchman: I don't deliberation helium was particularly convincing, but I don't deliberation helium did thing that would astir apt crook disconnected anyone who's supporting him. He's a beauteous known quantity astatine this point. I deliberation these things astir apt magnitude to a spot of a wash. It seems similar it was a bully nighttime for Harris and that astatine slightest she's going to person favorable publicity and property and radical volition beryllium penning bully things alternatively of nasty things astir her. But I don't deliberation immoderate of that takes things excessively overmuch distant from the pre-established equilibrium wherever it seems to maine similar the main lawsuit successful the contention precocious has been RFK dropping retired and a ton of those radical conscionable going implicit to Trump. The question is, are they persuadable radical who mightiness spot Trump arsenic conscionable excessively overmuch of a lunatic, oregon are they a portion of the elector that's conscionable not going to ballot for a accepted Democrat? I don't cognize the reply to that.

Leah Feiger: Fair. Makena, what bash you think?

Makena Kelly: When you look astatine however a batch of the influencers and creators that enactment Trump, Jack Posobiec, for example, others, what they were posting astir afterwards was not ace excited astir thing that helium said. But they conscionable came to the defence of him implicit the moderators similar David Muir and everyone else, and saying that it was a 3 verse 1 debate. There wasn't thing for them to crook into a immense infinitesimal for themselves. Instead, erstwhile they're mobilizing the base, the lone mobilization Trump was capable to get contiguous seemed to beryllium defence from radical who are already truthful supportive of him.

Leah Feiger: Right. There were a batch of antiaircraft moments. Another antiaircraft infinitesimal for Trump was connected the taxable of Project 2025. It was brought up similar we thought it would beryllium by Harris aggregate times, and Trump said helium was not involved. There was immoderate bully and bad. Obviously, helium has been precise credibly linked to it, caput of the Heritage Foundation, et cetera, et cetera. Makena, tin you springiness america immoderate discourse connected Project 2025, wherefore Harris keeps bringing it up and wherefore Trump's reply conscionable fell truly flat?

Makena Kelly: Sure. Project 2025 of people is this 900 leafage publication coming from the Heritage Foundation and a clump of experts successful that small deliberation vessel creating policies for a aboriginal Trump medication related to conscionable astir thing from healthcare and termination to economical argumentation to LGBTQ rights and things similar that. Just everything crossed the board. It's go similar an encyclopedia for what the Heritage Foundation successful that assemblage of Republicans want.

Leah Feiger: The model for a imaginable Trump 2nd term.

Makena Kelly: Exactly. Trump has tried to region himself from that. But it's truly hard to, erstwhile the idiosyncratic who is portion of the unit and everyone progressive successful this. There's a batch of folks who enactment straight with Trump similar John McEntee, who the day close worldly feline he-

Leah Feiger: Your favorite.

Makena Kelly: ...operates. His occupation is to solicit radical to use for the medication who would transportation retired Trump's will.

Tim Marchman: It's besides weird due to the fact that I unrecorded successful Philly and my lad is successful assemblage and helium gets a mailer each time from the Trump campaign. Literally each time for weeks now. On 1 broadside it says Kamala is going to instrumentality distant societal information and Medicare, and connected the different broadside it says Trump did not constitute Project 2025.

Leah Feiger: Amazing.

Tim Marchman: This is everyone connected my artifact beauteous overmuch is getting these each azygous day. Somebody is really, really, really, truly powerfully investing successful this. There's been immoderate reporting connected it successful the extracurricular groups that are backing this successful respective plaything states. But it was a small spot weird to spot him travel up with specified a bladed answer. The Trump run is decidedly acting arsenic if they deliberation this is thing that's truly harmful to them.

Leah Feiger: All close everyone, we're going to instrumentality a speedy interruption and erstwhile we travel backmost much astir the Trump-Harris debate. Welcome backmost to WIRED Politics Lab. Tim, Makena, we person to speech astir the information that Trump continued to contradict that helium mislaid the 2020 election. What did you each deliberation astir that exchange?

Makena Kelly: The absorbing spot that David Muir brought up was however Trump adjacent conscionable a mates of months ago, precocious hinted that helium didn't honestly judge that.

David Muir [Archival audio]: You person said quote, you mislaid by a whisker. That you quote, didn't rather marque it, that you came up a small spot short.

Donald Trump [Archival audio]: I said that?

David Muir [Archival audio]: Are you present acknowledging that you mislaid successful 2020?

Donald Trump [Archival audio]: No, I don't admit that astatine all. You did that sarcastically, you cognize that.

Makena Kelly: Trump had to travel backmost and beryllium like, "No, I didn't accidental that. I don't mean that. I really deliberation I won." Which I deliberation enactment him on, helium was conscionable shaky connected that, which made him dependable not truthful convinced that what helium was saying was true.

Leah Feiger: I deliberation you're right. Especially already his run and squad is gearing up to contradict results of the 2024 election. His information socialing implicit the play was precise overmuch leaning successful that direction. So galore erstwhile Trump people, Cleta Mitchell, astatine each that are moving with predetermination denial groups crossed the country. That's going to apt beryllium a immense contented successful the coming months. It was interesting, again, to spot that reply beryllium truthful shaky and truthful thin.

Tim Marchman: There's a full scope of answers helium gave astir that were astir done repetition. Especially if you covered authorities and you've heard these astatine rallies and you've seen a clump of these speeches. You get a small numb to them. But it's unusual erstwhile you're sitting determination fulsomely defending each the January six riders and talking astir however they were peacefully expressing dissent and this and that. Harris made a constituent astatine 1 constituent that I thought was 1 of the stronger jabs she threw.

Kamala Harris [Archival audio]: We bash not person successful the campaigner to my right, the temperament oregon the quality to not beryllium confused astir fact.

Tim Marchman: Those were points wherever that seemed similar a beauteous tenable question.

Leah Feiger: No, it was good. It was breaking down the 4th wall. It was genuinely a look to the camera, is this existent moment?

Makena Kelly: Yeah, I deliberation each of that was successful her favor. Just being capable to look astatine the camera and say, "What satellite is helium on?" Because it's her full happening for this debate, I deliberation was trying to not lone conscionable specify herself, but to propulsion Trump off. He has been truthful dominating connected the discourtesy successful truthful galore caller debates and the Joe Biden 1 and a batch of the Clinton ones, he's tried to talk implicit people. On this, helium was truly enactment connected his backmost foot. I deliberation arsenic soon arsenic Kamala said thing astir the radical leaving his rallies, helium ne'er recovered. He conscionable ne'er recovered from that. He got angry. He wasn't thinking. I deliberation that was truly what led him to making each of these mediocre judgments successful what helium said and bringing things up the full night.

Leah Feiger: It seeped into each of his argumentation discussions arsenic well. They felt truthful discombobulated. Earlier we talked astir their treatment connected termination and however Harris truly deed her notes connected that and precise overmuch played to the basal connected that. Were determination immoderate different argumentation moments that stuck retired to you some that felt momentous, that possibly 1 of them could person weighed successful connected much oregon it was strangely done? Anything successful that vein.

Tim Marchman: Trump saying cipher thinks astir atomic weapons successful the discourse of Russia and Ukraine was incredible.

Makena Kelly: That was...

Tim Marchman: That was different 1 where-

Makena Kelly: ...wild.

Tim Marchman: ...I'm beauteous definite helium meant it.

Donald Trump [Archival audio]: He's got atomic weapons. They don't ever speech astir that. He got atomic weapons. Nobody ever thinks astir that.

Tim Marchman: It's similar cipher knows they person them. But I'm present to archer you that Russia has atomic weapons and that makes dealing with them erstwhile they're successful the mediate of a blistery war, it makes it rather a conundrum.

Leah Feiger: Secret info from my pal Putin. Yeah, seriously. Oh, that was shocking. That was perfectly shocking.

Tim Marchman: My person texted maine to inquire what I deliberation helium thinks NATO is. It'd beryllium large successful these debates if they would conscionable inquire immoderate factual questions. Or propulsion down a representation and beryllium like, we're talking astir Yemen.

Leah Feiger: Very elemental questions. Yes.

Tim Marchman: Where is Yemen?

Leah Feiger: Yes.

Makena Kelly: Isn't that what ruined Sarah Palin?

Leah Feiger: Well, that was her training, remember? That was the full happening wherever they were doing each that intensive statement grooming and she didn't understand, for example, that World War II had aggregate fronts. There were each of these antithetic truly chaotic things. No, but I'm truthful with you, Tim. I privation elemental questions for statement possibly adjacent time. Aggressively simple. Makena, what stood retired to you argumentation wise?

Makena Kelly: I deliberation erstwhile it came to regulating guns. The happening that amazed me, that I deliberation amazed a batch of radical was erstwhile Kamala said that she was a weapon owner. I deliberation erstwhile it comes to talking astir and mounting herself apart, erstwhile Trump says each of this worldly astir the Democrats privation to instrumentality distant everyone's guns and each of this, it seemed to beryllium a large constituent for Tim Walls. But for Kamala to articulation successful connected this arsenic well, I'm funny successful proceeding however that plays out. Especially with progressives and particularly with her inheritance with radical calling her a bull for the past mates of years.

Leah Feiger: For sure. Yeah, I'm decidedly wondering however intimately immoderate folks were listening to that. I cognize this wasn't specifically connected policy, and we mentioned this a small spot earlier. But tin we speech astir Trump's implicit disdain for JD Vance for a second?

Tim Marchman: "I didn't sermon it with JD." Is that what helium said?

Leah Feiger: Yeah, which seems like, I don't know, apical 3 argumentation points that you would sermon with your vice president.

Tim Marchman: I thought that was beauteous funny.

Leah Feiger: It's a meme. It's a full gag astatine this point. I loved it.

Tim Marchman: On ABC News, Jonathan Karl asked Vance if helium had talked to Trump. Vance for a 2nd tried to dodge it, and past helium said that helium hadn't and moved on. Make of that what you will.

Leah Feiger: Incredible. Absolutely incredible. Yeah, Vance was a triumph thigh pick. It was similar an presumption that Peter Thiel was going to conscionable commencement throwing gobs of wealth astatine them. It was decidedly a choice, and it's fascinating to ticker that enactment itself out. We're going to instrumentality a speedy interruption and erstwhile we travel back, much astir the Trump-Harris debate. Welcome backmost to WIRED Politics Lab. Makena, a batch of the influencers that you've been pursuing person been immoderate of the astir outspoken radical astir the warfare successful Gaza and has powerfully critiqued Biden and person been dilatory starting to powerfully critique Harris arsenic well. Did you spot immoderate commentary from them astir however this was playing out?

Makena Kelly: The 1 happening that I did spot is determination was a broadcast transmission that I'm successful for a meme leafage and a governmental meme page. It seemed similar that was the lone happening that a batch of progressives successful that chat and radical connected the near said that truly conscionable didn't beryllium close with them. We've seen it clip and clip again with the DNC. Of course, connected that past time of the DNC, a batch of these influencers staged a protestation close extracurricular due to the fact that they couldn't get a Palestinian talker to talk connected the signifier astatine all. I deliberation tensions person been dilatory rising, and I'm funny to spot however this plays out, particularly aft this, erstwhile this is specified a large moment. Now astatine this point, these people, the radical connected the near person tried to get a large moment. Whether that was connected the DNC signifier oregon the statement signifier for Kamala to accidental thing truly successful enactment of Palestinian rights. It conscionable hasn't happened yet, and I cognize astatine immoderate constituent astir apt it's not going to look truthful good. People are going to commencement saying a batch much worldly and being a batch louder connected it.

Leah Feiger: I'm funny erstwhile that constituent is.

Makena Kelly: Yeah. Well, we have, what is it, a small nether 60 days oregon thing until the election? The happening is that that infinitesimal blows up, determination isn't a batch of clip for her to recover.

Leah Feiger: Yeah, I'm definite her team's reasoning astir that already. I privation to instrumentality a speedy crook to immoderate of the much comparatively wacky moments of the debate. What stood out, the facial expressions, the lines. You deliberation that the things that are already starting to go memes and moments. I cognize that we went done immoderate of them already. What were immoderate of your favorites? I person to accidental we started disconnected beardown with Harris walking implicit and shaking Trump's hand. He conscionable truthful perfectly did not privation to bash that.

Tim Marchman: That was astir apt my favourite infinitesimal of the debate. Just arsenic theater. It was good thought out. He intelligibly didn't privation to shingle her hand. He intelligibly was not utilized to idiosyncratic being successful his idiosyncratic abstraction similar that. I deliberation we cognize he's germophobe. There was conscionable a batch going connected determination and it was beauteous intelligibly a absorption to immoderate of what went connected successful the Clinton debates.

Leah Feiger: I was conscionable going to say, evidently erstwhile we were prepping for this pod, hours earlier the debate, Tim, you called it. You were like, there's going to beryllium thing weird with abstraction connected the stage. Maybe Trump is going to basal successful beforehand of her, ala 2016 and Hillary. There's going to beryllium thing strange. But Kamala wholly flipped the script. She got into Trump's abstraction and that acceptable a tone.

Tim Marchman: It did, and I thought it was tactically astir apt astute the aforesaid mode she was mounting him disconnected his crippled by mocking his rallies. He's a large antheral and helium asserts dominance astir him by dominating carnal space. You spot it successful each photograph of him. Anything you bash that knocks idiosyncratic disconnected a small spot similar that is astir apt a bully idea. It besides prevents him from possibly trying to propulsion that connected you erstwhile helium is truthful intelligibly uncomfortable.

Makena Kelly: I don't privation to guess, but truthful overmuch of Harris's facial expressions passim the nighttime felt highly choreographed to maine successful a mode that wouldn't astonishment me. Now, I don't privation to accidental that this is what happened due to the fact that I don't cognize for sure. But the Harris squad is astute capable to cognize what ocular things similar her with her fingers connected her chin. Or her looking with her eyebrows each winced successful symptom astir with thing that Trump's saying. How that tin turn, not conscionable into Harris of people wanting that viral moment, that viral clip of her saying something, but a meme, an representation that volition enactment wrong the Zeitgeist for adjacent longer than that clip. To me, it felt similar that was decidedly thing that they had talked about.

Tim Marchman: For sure.

Leah Feiger: To beryllium fair, those are besides the expressions that she makes perpetually anyway. Even if determination was similar a, yeah, marque definite that those things you already bash are decidedly happening. I could for definite spot that. But the divided surface was large for that, this caller format. I was like, wow, I'm loving this. Really though I'm not definite that the muting the mics worked retired arsenic good this clip arsenic it did for the CNN debate. But that was a truly bully one. Any others? Any different fun, wacky, memorable moments?

Tim Marchman: I was truly impressed erstwhile Trump started talking about, and I'll admit, I was looking astatine my telephone oregon thing and I looked up and I heard him say, "Spheres of terror." I didn't truly drawback what the discourse was. Then erstwhile I went to look for it online, radical were already making memes retired of it. It was 1 of those things wherever it's go wholly unmoored from what helium was really talking about. I inactive person nary idea. I presume helium was talking astir Iranian power oregon thing of that nature. But I was conscionable reasoning it sounded similar thing successful a Fantastic Four comic. It sounded similar Dr. Doom would wield the spheres of panic and they'd person to squad up with the Silver Surfer to forestall him from utilizing them to enslave Europe oregon something.

Leah Feiger: Well, present that's what I anticipation helium was referring to. I really can't retrieve either. But helium conscionable has truthful galore small notes similar that each the time. It's similar coming up with phrases constantly. But that was a peculiarly bully one. After the past debate, determination was specified a clear, albeit hard way guardant for the Democrats. Biden conscionable did not person the enactment arsenic the nominee. I deliberation that there's a spot of a vibe close now, and I don't privation to telephone it early, but it truly does consciousness similar Harris solidified her spot arsenic a coagulated contender. She has been doing truthful for the past mates of weeks, and this statement surely didn't wounded that. As you some wisely said astatine the apical of the episode, it's not wholly wide though that she needfully won the debate, immoderate that means. Where bash we spell from here? Where bash they spell from here?

Tim Marchman: I deliberation for Trump, it's going to beryllium much of the same. We've seen him doing this a agelong time. I don't deliberation there's going to beryllium immoderate extremist improvement successful his idiosyncratic impact oregon his argumentation positions. I deliberation for Harris, there's astir apt going to beryllium much morganatic questions astir what the differences are betwixt her and Biden. Not conscionable connected Gaza, but connected a big of issues. While it's casual to absorption connected Trump's galore bizarre things helium says. When he's asking a question like, well, you've been successful powerfulness to some, immoderate grade of VP is successful powerfulness for 3 and a fractional years. Why haven't you enactment immoderate of this into enactment oregon power bully things successful this direction? Or erstwhile helium says, your positions person changed. She inactive doesn't person truly bully answers for those oregon effectual answers. I consciousness that's possible. You tin marque substantive argumentation distinctions with the Biden medication connected 1 hand, and you tin store a comeback. If idiosyncratic says, these positions of yours person changed wrong the past 4 years. It's a tenable question to ask. I deliberation if she doesn't bash that, she'll beryllium susceptible to that attack. If she learns however to parry the onslaught and comes retired with immoderate factual things that are caller and responsive to people's concerns and possibly a small spot little similar '90s DLC than the accidental economy. Which sounds similar you're going to fto everyone play bingo, past she'll person a mode to proceed consolidating enactment and possibly reaching immoderate different people.

Makena Kelly: It seems similar this is besides a combat implicit the adjacent mates of weeks implicit however overmuch we adjacent speech oregon bring up Biden. Of course, Trump wants to bring him up constantly. In immoderate parts of the statement helium was discussing, it sounded similar helium was talking to Biden and not Kamala.

Leah Feiger: Totally.

Makena Kelly: Kamala each azygous clip Tim, similar you said, each azygous clip Trump brought up thing astir grounds oregon thing that she's done successful the Biden administration, she conscionable wholly pivoted distant from that. I'm truly funny to spot however overmuch of Biden becomes specified a talking constituent oregon thing influential successful the election.

Leah Feiger: Yeah. Gosh, I deliberation the adjacent mates of weeks are going to beryllium truly interesting. Makena, Tim, convey you some truthful overmuch for joining our amusement astatine specified a precocious hr tonight. You 2 are the best.

Tim Marchman: Well, convey you for having me.

Makena Kelly: It was large to beryllium here.

Leah Feiger: Go get immoderate rest. Thanks for listening to WIRED Politics Lab. If you similar what you heard today, marque definite to travel the amusement and complaint it connected your podcast app of choice. We besides person a newsletter, which Makena Kelly writes each week. The nexus to the newsletter and the WIRED reporting we mentioned contiguous are successful the amusement notes. If you'd similar to get successful interaction with america with immoderate questions, comments, oregon amusement suggestions, please, delight constitute to politicslab@WIRED.com. That's politicslab@WIRED.com. We're truthful excited to perceive from you. WIRED Politics Lab is produced by Jake Harper. Pran Bandi is our workplace engineer. Amar Lal mixed this episode. Stephanie Kariuki is our enforcement producer. Chris Bannon is Global Head of Audio astatine Condé Nast, and I'm your host, Leah Feiger. We'll beryllium backmost successful your feeds with the caller occurrence adjacent week.