Stacey Abrams Has Some Ideas on How to Stop Elon Musk and the Far Right in Georgia

It’s the election homestretch, and contiguous connected the show, we spoke with Stacey Abrams. Abrams has fought elector suppression for much than a decade—and she’s inactive warring it. She joins Leah from Kamala Harris’s run way to speech astir predetermination conspiracies, Elon Musk's influence, ballot container fires, Joe Rogan, and whether a Democratic campaigner tin triumph Georgia.

Leah Feiger is @LeahFeiger. Write to america astatine politicslab@WIRED.com. Be definite to subscribe to the WIRED Politics Lab newsletter here.

Mentioned this week:
US Intel Says Insider Threats Are 'Likely' During the Election by Tess Owen and Dell Cameron
Election Fraud Conspiracy Theories Are Already Thriving Online by David Gilbert
Russian Propaganda Unit Appears to Be Behind Spread of False Tim Walz Sexual Abuse Claims by David Gilbert
Elon Musk's PAC Is Buying Ads for Donald Trump connected Elon Musk's X by Vittoria Elliott

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Transcript

Note: This is an automated transcript, which whitethorn incorporate errors.

Leah Feiger: On Tuesday night, Kamala Harris gave 1 of her past speeches of the campaign.

Kamala Harris [Archival audio]: One week from today, you volition person the accidental to marque a determination that straight impacts your life, the beingness of your family, and the aboriginal of this state we love.

Leah Feiger: She's spoken astir the aforesaid spot where, 4 years ago, Donald Trump held his rally connected January 6th.

Kamala Harris [Archival audio]: We cognize who Donald Trump is. He is the idiosyncratic who stood astatine this precise spot astir 4 years ago, and sent an equipped mob to the United States Capitol to overturn the volition of the radical successful a escaped and just election.

Leah Feiger: It was a vivid reminder of what tin hap erstwhile disinformation, conspiracy theories, and far-right extremism dispersed unchecked. As we've talked astir connected this amusement and successful our reporting, those problems person lone grown successful the 4 years since the Capitol riot. This is WIRED Politics Lab, a amusement astir however tech is changing politics. I'm Leah Feiger, the elder authorities exertion astatine WIRED. It is our past amusement earlier the election. The contention betwixt Kamala Harris and Donald Trump is genuinely a toss-up with 7 states seemingly successful play, including Georgia, which is wherefore we wanted to speech to erstwhile authorities typical and gubernatorial campaigner Stacey Abrams. For much than a decade, Abrams has been pivotal to expanding elector turnout successful Georgia. Her efforts helped crook Georgia into a toss-up authorities that went bluish successful 2020. Since then, Abrams has continued calling retired efforts to suppress elector information successful Georgia and beyond. Abrams has been connected the run way to enactment Kamala Harris for president. She's joining america to speech astir predetermination conspiracies, elector suppression, Elon Musk's influence, ballot container fires, Joe Rogan, and whether a antiauthoritarian campaigner tin triumph Georgia. Stacey Abrams, invited to WIRED Politics Lab. Thank you truthful overmuch for coming on.

Stacey Abrams: Thank you for having me.

Leah Feiger: Let's leap close in. We're talking connected Wednesday morning, and the contention feels precise overmuch successful flux. Kamala Harris gave her large closing code connected Tuesday to a immense assemblage successful D.C. Trump had his large rally astatine Madison Square Garden successful New York.

Donald Trump [Archival audio]: Our state volition beryllium bigger, better, bolder, richer, safer, and stronger than ever before.

Leah Feiger: As we caput into this last stretch, what is keeping you up astatine night?

Stacey Abrams: Well, conscionable making definite that radical judge that it's worthy being heard. Voter engagement is little and little astir the names connected the ballot, and much astir who believes they merit to beryllium successful the booth. By that, I mean you've got populations that person not seen the alteration that they've desired implicit galore years that cuts crossed aggregate administrations, oregon they've heard excessively overmuch misinformation oregon disinformation that disquiets their consciousness that they tin contribute. So, I deliberation the astir important occupation is to punctual each azygous American national that information successful our ideology is however we unit the manus of elected officials to present what we need, and that by sitting out, we are giving them support to proceed not doing what we request to person done. That means not conscionable astatine the apical of the summons but each the mode down.

Leah Feiger: Right. I conjecture that means not conscionable making the generic lawsuit for democracy, but much what tin ideology bash for you.

Stacey Abrams: But I deliberation that is the generic lawsuit for democracy.

Leah Feiger: Sure.

Stacey Abrams: We person democracy. I admit you having maine on. My podcast, Assembly Required, I was successful speech precocious with Kavitha Surana, who is the ProPublica newsman who broke the communicative of the women who died successful Georgia. I usage that example, due to the fact that they died due to the fact that their reproductive state was stripped distant by an elected official, by a radical of elected officials. Their quality to marque decisions astir their lives was straight connected to democracy. Who got elected determined whether they had rights. So, I deliberation the generic ideology speech has to get backmost to the cardinal information that our rights are straight connected to who gets elected, and that is determined by ideology and by voting.

Leah Feiger: I accidental arsenic good however your elected officials are adjacent talking astir you, and talking astir the electorate that they're supposedly trying to represent. Obviously, the full state is fundamentally a buzz with the comedian Tony Hinchcliffe's racist gag astir Puerto Rico astatine Trump's Madison Square Garden rally.

Tony Hinchcliff [Archival audio]: I don't cognize if you guys cognize this, but there's virtually a floating land of garbage successful the mediate of the water close now. I deliberation it's called Puerto Rico.

Leah Feiger: That's dominated the quality cycle. There was a batch of racism and sexism passim that full rally, not conscionable from Hinchcliffe, though evidently that 1 successful peculiar grabbed the cycle. Why bash you deliberation that remark has been seized connected by everyone? What does that accidental astir wherever the campaigns are close now?

Stacey Abrams: We person go immune to outrage astir the racism and xenophobia and invective that comes straight from Trump. I deliberation what was truthful shocking was his willingness to level a comparative chartless and springiness him support to onslaught and to explicitly demean an full assemblage of voters that 20 minutes later, they would accidental they request to person turnout. They person this, I think, comical advertisement that they're moving that seems to effort to cleanable up, nary pun intended, their behavior. But, the world is 1 candidate, Donald Trump, has made vengeance and choler and retribution, his raison d'etre, and Kamala Harris has spent her clip trying to physique community, physique crossed conversations, having circumstantial agendas that don't isolate, but alternatively amusement respect for the assorted communities, and invitation them into this assemblage politic.

Leah Feiger: Yet, Trump is polling astatine astir half, which is I cognize very, precise hard for a batch of radical that are watching this campaign, and watching these comments and racist convectives. How did we get to that point?

Stacey Abrams: I unrecorded successful a portion of the state wherever we perpetually and person historically contended with this duality of the quality of voters and the duality of the quality of our assemblage members that the aforesaid spot that gave commencement to the KKK gave commencement to the Civil Rights movement. The aforesaid spot that allows this benignant of incendiary behaviour to spell unchecked besides tends to springiness emergence and springiness commencement to those who are truthful committed to warring it. We're conscionable seeing this play retired connected a nationalist level and nether a microscope that we haven't seen successful galore decades.

Leah Feiger: Obviously, some campaigns deliberation that Georgia is successful play. Harris held a rally with Obama and Bruce Springsteen past week.

Bruce Springsteen [Archival audio]: She's moving to beryllium the 47th President of the United States. Donald Trump is moving to beryllium an American tyrant.

Leah Feiger: She's going backmost connected Saturday. Trump has been pushing aboriginal voting with Charlie Kirk. He had different rally this week. It's a truly choky race, and I'm precise funny successful the kinds of accusation that the mean elector successful Georgia is getting close now. Have you encountered immoderate misinformation oregon disinformation that's already shocked you?

Stacey Abrams: Well, if you crook connected the television, determination are X.

Leah Feiger: You're like, "Yes, everywhere. In fact, for sure."

Stacey Abrams: If you blink, you'll perceive astatine slightest 3 caller ads that provide.

Leah Feiger: Yikes.

Stacey Abrams: Look, it's the quality of campaigning that some the campaigns and IE's volition effort their astir shocking narratives to jar you into behavior, but I deliberation what we request to look astatine alternatively are the applicable plans that are being offered. You've got Donald Trump who is touting tariffs. Well, if you are successful an cultivation state, if you are successful a authorities that relies connected manufacturing, you should beryllium terrified. He's saying he's going to rise taxes. China doesn't constitute a cheque for tariffs. Tariffs are paid by the consumers, due to the fact that it is the terms you wage for paying for goods that were not generated successful this country. Therefore, unless helium intends to wholly boost successful a mode that we haven't seen since 1890s, the full manufacturing cognition of the United States, he's raising taxes connected Americans. Whereas, Kamala Harris plans to forgive loans for 1 cardinal tiny businesses to assistance them grow. She intends to put successful communities, to enactment our communities. She has a precise wide program for however she's going to person location healthcare workers instrumentality attraction of their families. So, you've got a precise chiseled opposition that's not breaking through, I think, unluckily connected the news.

Leah Feiger: Right. All of these policies are precise good and good. So overmuch of it depends connected what the voters really deliberation these policies are.

Stacey Abrams: Exactly. The crushed I springiness those 2 distinctions is that if you are successful Georgia, you've got 2 precise circumstantial communities. You've got the increasing communities of colour that privation to hear, "How are you going to service needs that person been underserved successful this authorities for decades?" You've got communities that are hopeless to hear, "How are you going to revive the areas of our system that helped america turn earlier agriculture manufacturing?" So, erstwhile these 2 narratives travel into play, it's important that determination beryllium translations matrix. It says, "This is what it means, and that's not ever being done."

Leah Feiger: Then erstwhile it gets to the existent voting itself and the existent predetermination itself, obviously, there's besides a ton of disinformation retired determination already. Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene is from Georgia, and is present pushing this renewed and baseless assertion that dominion voting machines are misreporting votes. We've been reporting this full week already astir however conspiracy theories connected predetermination and elector fraud person been rapidly spreading online, pushed by predetermination denial groups, the Trump campaign, and adjacent Russian disinfo campaigns. How are you seeing this play retired successful Georgia already?

Stacey Abrams: Well, we person been moving to propulsion backmost precise hard, because, again, we are crushed zero for this misinformation campaign, for this disinformation campaign. Some of it is intentional. Some of it's benign, due to the fact that radical weave unneurotic existent problems, but physique retired a conspiracy mentation to explicate it.

Leah Feiger: Sure.

Stacey Abrams: So, our enactment has to beryllium explaining to radical that voting does work, that determination volition beryllium obstacles, that due to the fact that of the laws passed by Brian Kemp and others, SB 202, SB 189, things person been made harder. The Sturm and Drang astir the authorities predetermination board, and their effort to sow chaos created the abstraction to past person radical interest that the elections weren't going to work. So, erstwhile you suborn that benignant of behavior, you make an ambiance for the remainder of brainsick to marque sense.

Leah Feiger: Sure.

Stacey Abrams: So, our occupation is to propulsion backmost and to marque definite that we aren't forcing untrained workers to manus number thousands of ballots, due to the fact that that would've caused disorder and errors, and undermine the assurance of Georgians. Luckily, the courts person stepped successful and that stopped. But due to the fact that that communicative played retired for truthful galore weeks, it created this miasma of what other aren't they telling us, oregon what other are they trying to do?

Leah Feiger: How bash you scope radical who judge this stuff, particularly erstwhile the conspiracies that are going astir person specified aggravated affectional appeal? This predetermination was stolen from you. Your representatives are hiding things from you. Obviously, these conspiracies began successful the aboriginal stages of 2020, but they've organized. These predetermination denial networks are incredibly organized close now. They person created their ain societal platforms, their ain apps to propulsion these and get to people. How bash you counteract that?

Stacey Abrams: You person to stay vigilant. You person to support warring back. Organizations similar Fair Fight person truly been focused connected the infrastructure of elections, but luckily, I've been portion of gathering an infrastructure of C3 and different orgs that person been conscionable retired determination having one-on-one conversations, answering the questions that radical person astir their vote, astir whether their ballot volition work. It's besides making definite that we instrumentality the affirmative impervious points, and deconstruct it.

Leah Feiger: Sure.

Stacey Abrams: So for example, erstwhile radical got precise excited astir the aboriginal voting numbers, and this prevarication that came retired that due to the fact that truthful galore radical voted, determination could not beryllium elector suppression was implicit misinformation that was straight delivered by the Secretary of State. What genuinely happened was that radical shifted their voting method, due to the fact that it was so harder to ballot by message if you were an aged person, if you were disabled. You had the quality telling you, "If you're not participating, it's your prime due to the fact that everything's easier." But if you are disabled, and you present cognize determination are less locations for you to get to that are easy accessible, determination are less aboriginal voting locations due to the fact that they unopen them down. Drop boxes are harder to access. You are not incorrect to deliberation that your quality to ballot has been heated intentionally, but you're being told that it's each successful your imagination. So, the different portion is for america to admit the information than successful Georgia, it is harder to ballot due to the fact that of the decisions made by our leaders, but determination are inactive avenues, and we're going to bash what we tin to assistance you find those avenues and get your ballot formed anyway.

Leah Feiger: Right. I mean, for our beauteous listeners, the past mates of years, the past 7 years person been a vague blur, but successful lawsuit radical forgot, Trump has been accused of predetermination interference successful Georgia for calling Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger, and asking him to find votes, which helium refused to do. But similar you said, Raffensperger and Kemp person evidently been supportive of policies that tin suppress elector participation. At WIRED, we've besides been reporting a batch connected the threats from right-wing extremists and militia groups moving successful unison with predetermination denial groups to people what they judge is elector fraud. Already, ballot boxes successful Oregon person been acceptable connected fire. There's been incidents astir the country. Do you person immoderate concerns astir the information of voters successful Georgia close now?

Stacey Abrams: I'm not acrophobic astir the information of voters. I americium acrophobic astir what this onslaught connected ideology signals. I'm acrophobic for our predetermination workers who person to navigate this maelstrom of prevarication and invective and fear. I americium hopeful that what we are seeing are isolated incidents of misdirection and radical who are just, I think, profoundly disturbed. Instead, we absorption connected however bash we grow access? How bash we spell to our neighbors and say, "I cognize you privation to ballot early, and we lone person 1 location. Can I springiness you a ride?" So, we person to, arsenic citizens, arsenic neighbors, instrumentality the steps indispensable to assistance support our friends, our family, our communities, and prosecute them. I don't privation america to instrumentality this precise heartbreaking and blatant onslaught connected democracy, and grow it to accidental that nothing's going to work. Our systems are resilient. They are nether onslaught though, and some of these things tin beryllium true. The mode we clasp up that resilience is by refusing to cower to the coercion of these attacks. So, our work is to person conversations similar this to say, "Yes, you should judge the grounds of your eyes that things are hard, but no, you should not judge that these are intolerable attempts." We tin get the enactment done, but we person to enactment harder, due to the fact that the advancement we're warring for, the aboriginal we're trying to physique demands your participation. Without you, our resilience weakens.

Leah Feiger: We'll beryllium close backmost for much with Stacey Abrams. Welcome backmost to WIRED Politics Lab and our speech with Stacey Abrams. One of our large stories this week showed that U.S. quality agencies are acrophobic astir "insider threats." They deliberation that radical with entree to predetermination centers could bash things similar springiness different radical access, crook disconnected information cameras, oregon adjacent change oregon destruct ballots. Are you disquieted astir that astatine each successful Georgia, and what bash we bash if that happens?

Stacey Abrams: I unrecorded successful a authorities wherever the politician and the Secretary of State supported connection that expanded the quality of random individuals to onslaught and question a person's close to vote. It's called wide elector challenges. More than 360,000 person been filed successful the states since they expanded permission, and that's portion of it. So, I americium ever acrophobic that those who should beryllium protecting our rights to ballot are not consenting to bash it if they deliberation it whitethorn origin them to suffer an election. But, I spell backmost to you tin either beryllium dissuaded by it, oregon you tin beryllium energized by it. So, I take to beryllium energized. I take to accidental that we promote voters who whitethorn beryllium affected. Check online. Check the presumption of your ballot and of your registration. Show up. Bring radical with you. We should beryllium concerned. We should beryllium acrophobic astir insider attacks that are these melodramatic ones similar we saw with the arson attempts, but we should besides beryllium acrophobic astir the administrative attempts that are the ones that marque it harder to entree the close to ballot nether the guise of security, due to the fact that this isn't a information issue. This is an entree issue. When the politician of Georgia said that helium changed the laws, due to the fact that helium didn't similar the result successful 2020, we should judge him. We should show that we are unwilling to let anyone wrong oregon extracurricular to onslaught and undermine our democracy, due to the fact that the spot of our ideology is that nary substance what obstacles we see, we proceed to amusement up. We proceed to formed our ballots, and we proceed to support the values that marque our state strong.

Leah Feiger: Absolutely. Obviously, similar we've been talking about, each of these things are happening successful unison, right? These militant extremist groups and these attacks wouldn't beryllium happening without these conspiracies, wouldn't beryllium happening without wide elector challenges. You're an adept connected this. I'd emotion if you could springiness america a spot of an explanation. How bash wide elector challenges work, and however person you been seeing them enactment successful Georgia specifically successful this rhythm truthful far?

Stacey Abrams: So, wide elector challenges hap erstwhile a azygous idiosyncratic goes done the elector roll, makes a list, and submits that database to a county, and says, "I judge these voters are ineligible." The occupation successful Georgia is that anterior to 2020, erstwhile those lists were drawn up, erstwhile those attacks were made, counties could mostly instrumentality a look, spot that determination was nary existent crushed to process these requests, and determination on. Well, due to the fact that determination was an enactment called True the Vote that did so, and they were not smacked down, but they were forestalled from being arsenic aggressive. In 2021, Brian Kemp signed into instrumentality a program to marque it easier, and past successful 2023, expanded the easiness with which they could enactment successful these challenges. So alternatively of putting successful saying, "I don't deliberation this feline lives adjacent doorway to maine anymore," you present person 1 idiosyncratic who lives successful the region who comes successful with 1,000 oregon 2,000 names, and the counters are present required to spell sanction by sanction by name, and process each azygous 1 of those challenges. You bash not person to person a valid crushed for the situation different than, Eh, I don't deliberation they can." It is past incumbent connected the elector to beryllium they person the close to participate. If you enactment 2 shifts-

Leah Feiger: That's specified an other challenge.

Stacey Abrams: Exactly. Let's presume you are a ma of six. Let's accidental a ma of three, who works an hr away. You get home, and there's this ominous missive successful your message saying, "You got to travel and beryllium that you person the close to vote." The clip you person to beryllium it is erstwhile you're connected call. You whitethorn oregon whitethorn not beryllium capable to marque it to that meeting, which means you whitethorn oregon whitethorn not beryllium capable to actively enactment successful elections. For a batch of folks, it's excessively hard, and they conscionable decide, "Okay." So, the volition is not to really disprove that these voters tin vote. The volition is to sow chaos, and to dampen their enthusiasm for participation. When your authorities participates by making it easier for radical to question your citizenship, you commencement to uncertainty the validity of the enactment you have. That's the problem, due to the fact that erstwhile you uncertainty the leadership, you're doubting the democracy. You're doubting the system. That's erstwhile we spot elector suppression moving extraordinarily good and precise efficiently.

Leah Feiger: That radical that you mentioned, True the Vote, they're back. They're backmost successful a big, large way. They person been spending the past twelvemonth really, truly nailing down connected each of their Zoom calls with volunteers. They've relaunched their apps for challenging elector rolls. They conscionable rather recently, I deliberation it was successful the past period oregon so, really launched a caller societal media web fundamentally successful bid to study conspiracies. So, these groups are inactive here. These aren't conscionable random individuals that are doing this. There is an organized effort. How bash you combat against specified a well-funded organized efforts with nonstop links to 1 circumstantial run to the Trump campaign. Obviously, there's different groups similar them, the Election Integrity Network tally by Cleta Mitchell, the erstwhile Trump advisor. They're prepared.

Stacey Abrams: I privation to travel backmost to thing you pointed retired earlier, and I deliberation it's important. We tin beryllium pleased that the Secretary of State and the Governor of Georgia did not interruption the law, and find votes that didn't exist.

Leah Feiger: It's a small spot of a debased bar.

Stacey Abrams: It's a precise debased bar.

Leah Feiger: Congratulations.

Stacey Abrams: Let's constituent retired 49 different governors managed to not bash the aforesaid thing. So, there's that. But here's wherefore I deliberation it's important for america to understand, those networks that you describe, present successful Georgia, Fair Fight, the enactment I created, sued True the Vote. But due to the fact that of authorities law, due to the fact that of the weakening of national law, they were permitted to continue. We did not triumph our lawsuit, not due to the fact that we were wrong, but due to the fact that the laws marque it easier for them to bash their enactment of elector suppression. That was suborned by, supported by, and encouraged by the Governor of Georgia. So, portion we are utilizing Trump arsenic an avatar, the radical doing this enactment connected the crushed preceded his introduction into politics, and volition beryllium present aft helium leaves. So, it is unsafe for america to presume that the decision of Donald Trump is the decision of this infrastructure. As you pointed out, we're talking hundreds of millions of dollars to crippled the strategy connected behalf of, successful this case, a peculiar governmental party. We person to telephone it out, not arsenic a substance of partisanship, but arsenic a substance of clarity, due to the fact that we person to recognize that nary substance which enactment is attacking our democracy, they are wrong. When you undermine ideology trying to triumph an election, you are undermining ideology for everyone who lives here, and nary 1 should beryllium permitted to bash so.

Leah Feiger: We're going to instrumentality a speedy break, but we'll beryllium close backmost for much with Stacey Abrams and however she thinks the Harris run is going. Welcome backmost to WIRED Politics Lab. We're talking with Stacey Abrams astir however she thinks the Harris run is going. I'm truthful funny to perceive immoderate of your thoughts connected the past mates of months and however the Harris run has gone. Obviously, aboriginal successful the campaign, Harris seemed to beryllium winning the internet. She was coconuts histrion galore. Waltz was calling Republicans weird, Brett Summer, et cetera. Lately, that has travel to a flimsy extremity arsenic we are a week retired from the election. Makes sense, but it truly seems that Trump has been coming retired truthful beardown online, hitting the bro vote, doing a batch of agelong interviews that showcase his property for amended oregon for worse. A caller Wall Street investigation shows that he's conscionable done much interviews period, whether it's TV, radio, podcast. Why bash you deliberation that is? Do you deliberation that the Harris run has worked hard capable to adjacent that spread successful the last days of the election?

Stacey Abrams: So, let's commencement disconnected with the world that you tin lone beryllium marque caller for truthful long.

Leah Feiger: Yes. For sure.

Stacey Abrams: When that's true. But there's besides a question, and you, I think, framed it precise properly. Donald Trump has been doing tons and tons of interviews, but he's talking to the aforesaid radical astir the aforesaid happening implicit and implicit again. So, there's quantity versus the quality. Quantity wise, yes, helium whitethorn beryllium doing more, but who is helium talking to? He has refused to person conversations connected CBS. He refused to bash 60 Minutes. He has refused to person conversations with anyone who would really inquire him hard questions. So, portion helium whitethorn beryllium doing more, the question is who is helium doing it for and who is helium talking to? I would accidental that determination are constrictive constraints. If you look astatine the assemblage that he's reaching retired to, it's not precisely an expanded beingness of viewers.

Leah Feiger: I perceive that. I'm wondering if it really is that constrictive though, right? Trump was conscionable connected Joe Rogan who has millions and millions of followers.

Stacey Abrams: Which I deliberation is besides perfect, truthful yes. So, there's the quantity and past there's the quality. When helium gets connected these shows, nary substance who he's talking to, he's saying the aforesaid thing. He went connected Joe Rogan, and managed to insult a full scope of people. Donald Trump has the situation of being Donald Trump nary substance wherever helium is. So, again, I don't privation america to confuse and conflate quantity with quality. Now, to the Harris campaign, she has been doing more. She's been doing much successful antithetic ways. She excessively has been doing podcasts. She's been talking to communities. She's been doing, for example, the Economic Freedom Talk series, wherever she's been highlighting achromatic concern owners and being successful conversation. She has been going crossed this state having large and tiny events, and I deliberation that's besides important, but we are talking astir a three-month campaign. We've got 1 idiosyncratic who's been moving for president for much than a decennary now, and 1 idiosyncratic who's been successful this run for 3 months. I deliberation it's important that she person the accidental to physique what she needs. Again, I look astatine quantity versus quality. While quantitatively she whitethorn not person done arsenic much, qualitatively, we person gotten overmuch richer information, overmuch much broad-based information. Her CNN Town Hall, the enactment that she has done, she has been trying to find the places wherever she tin person the broadest conversations with the astir fig of radical who request to perceive each of these things successful a precise contracted and constricted play of time. I deliberation she's done a large job.

Leah Feiger: This is simply a truly pugnacious question, adjacent a pugnacious happening for maine arsenic idiosyncratic successful media to ponder. I would emotion to judge that a Harris interrogation with CBS oregon CNN oregon immoderate of these publications, oregon these municipality halls matters mode much than an interrogation connected Joe Rogan. For my ain job's involvement alone, I honestly anticipation that. Does the American electorate really attraction astir the quantity versus prime question? There's portion of maine that's looking astatine these campaigns, and going, "You person Elon Musk retired determination tweeting to his implicit 200 cardinal followers, "Register to ballot successful Pennsylvania. Come look astatine maine talk astatine this religion successful Pennsylvania, this monolithic rally." You person Trump connected Joe Rogan. You person Trump connected the NELK Boys, connected Aidan Ross, connected each of these antithetic podcasts that are appealing to a precise circumstantial assemblage of voters that, to beryllium honest, some Democrats and Republicans would like. So, I'm wondering, does the prime versus quantity question really matter, oregon are we successful a caller epoch of crushed run versus net politics? That is it's thing wholly caller that we've possibly not really seen earlier successful a statesmanlike election.

Stacey Abrams: I deliberation it's each of the above, due to the fact that we person to retrieve that we've got fundamentally six cohorts of voters. You've got 18 to 25. You've got 26 to 35. You've got 35 to 50, 50 to 65, 65 to 75, and 75 plus. I'm reasonably definite that determination are cohorts successful determination that are not listening to Joe Rogan, couldn't find Joe Rogan if helium was lasting successful beforehand of them.

Leah Feiger: Sure.

Stacey Abrams: So, we cannot beryllium truthful seduced by the newness of an avenue of connection that we wantonness each of the different radical who are listening. So, yes, determination are podcasts. You and I some bash them. You person a self-selected audience, and truthful you've got to spell to the places wherever radical privation to be, and you got to spell to the places wherever radical thin to be. You can't elide 1 focusing connected the other. I deliberation what Kamala Harris has done efficaciously is effort to hopscotch the universe, and say, "I'm going to effort to enactment unneurotic a beauteous bully premix of each of the above."

Leah Feiger: Sure.

Stacey Abrams: I deliberation Donald Trump has been little consenting to bash so, due to the fact that helium has been much funny successful targeting a demographic, a antheral demographic that he's precise contented with, that helium hopes that helium tin crook out. He's moving a basal strategy. So, to your constituent astir caller versus old, 2 ways to tally a campaign. You tin tally a basal run wherever you're lone focusing connected the radical you cognize volition enactment you, and you're trying to boost the fig of those radical who volition amusement up. So, you cognize they hold with you. Now, you request them to crook out. Then you've got a persuasion run wherever you're trying to bring successful radical that you whitethorn not person naturally, but you're trying to physique a coalition, and besides get them to crook out. Donald Trump is moving a accepted basal campaign. He's doing it with caller media, and he's doing it crossed a fig of mediums, but that does not mean that he's doing thing marque new. Harris is moving a persuasion conjugation campaign, wherever she is trying to scope aggregate radical successful aggregate communities, and it's created immoderate tensions, due to the fact that she has to speech to everyone, due to the fact that she believes that the mode to triumph is to really physique a caller conjugation that is not conscionable this basal that we presume would ballot for her, but is gathering a caller basal of voters saying, "I'm going to dainty each of you with the respect you are owed by coming to conscionable you wherever you are." That's not caller either, but again, she's utilizing caller and aged media to bash it. So, I deliberation we should not get confused betwixt the quality betwixt the volition and the tools.

Leah Feiger: I perfectly perceive that. Obviously though, this is simply a antithetic environment, right? We person experienced a fracturing of media and societal platforms that we person ne'er seen before.

Stacey Abrams: Absolutely.

Leah Feiger: In galore ways, to me, it feels similar tech platforms person abdicated work successful this predetermination cycle.

Stacey Abrams: Yes, absolutely.

Leah Feiger: Elon Musk doesn't conscionable ain X. He's really been utilizing it to dispersed predetermination conspiracies, and letting different large influencers bash the same. How does the Harris run woody with that, and what bash you marque of the relation that Musk has played successful this election?

Stacey Abrams: So, the podcast I bash called Assembly Required, we had Esosa Osa connected to speech astir disinformation. The crushed this matters is that it's not conscionable Elon Musk. It's that Meta and different platforms person weakened their filters. So, Elon Musk has been aggressively and intentionally a disinformation factory.

Leah Feiger: Machine, genuinely unthinkable to watch.

Stacey Abrams: He is becoming his ain manufacture of life. So, helium deserves his ain circumstantial spot successful ignominy.

Leah Feiger: Fair.

Stacey Abrams: Let's enactment it that way. We should beryllium angry. We should beryllium concerned, but we should besides beryllium alert that portion helium is the loudest mentation of this unspeakable acheronian star, he's not alone. So, to your point, our work is to clasp each of these tech platforms accountable. You should not beryllium permitted to weaken the extortion that you beryllium the people. If you are going to clasp yourself retired arsenic a purveyor of information, you are obligated to guarantee that that accusation astatine slightest conscionable the basal odor test. Unfortunately, we person seen aggregate tech platforms abdicate that responsibility. So, portion I americium much than blessed to castigate and clasp Elon Musk peculiarly accountable for taking unspeakable and making it worse, we besides person the work connected the different broadside of this predetermination to measure everyone who was consenting to instrumentality this Wild West situation, and marque it worse.

Leah Feiger: I mean, absolutely. Yesterday, we came retired with a large nonfiction astir however militias are organizing connected Facebook, and you cognize what? Facebook is really car generating pages for militias. It's messy to accidental the least. Obviously with the Musk thing, helium comes with the payment of conscionable an implicit ton of cash. That has been besides chaotic to ticker astir his currency for registration sweepstakes. There's conscionable a batch happening determination that I americium perpetually wondering, "Is the Harris run doing capable to counteract, and tin they?"

Stacey Abrams: So, again, portion we whitethorn and should beryllium riled up, disquieted and engaged, the mightiness of wealth is not an absolute. I travel astatine that arsenic idiosyncratic who has had to bash the enactment I bash with little wealth than the folks I'm doing it against.

Leah Feiger: Sure.

Stacey Abrams: So, it is simply a batch easier erstwhile you've got a batch of money. I would emotion to person that problem. I'd emotion to person that. I'd emotion for that to beryllium my issue.

Leah Feiger: Listeners, if anyone would similar to marque that Stacey Abrams' problem.

Stacey Abrams: I'm good. I'd beryllium blessed to grapple with overly resourced narratives, but that comes backmost to the opening of this conversation. Democracy is people. We are going to beryllium bombarded and overwhelmed by misinformation, disinformation, malinformation, add-in AI, and the possibilities are terribly endless. That said, we tin propulsion backmost by holding to what we request and cognize to beryllium true. So, no, you can't outspend them erstwhile you don't person the money, but you tin outwork them. You tin retired infrastructure them. You tin physique capacity. What we were capable to bash successful Georgia came from a spot of having a batch little wealth than those who wanted it to enactment the mode it is. We haven't won. We are inactive successful this fight. We are perpetually fighting. We are perpetually going to court. We are perpetually challenging legislation, due to the fact that winning a azygous infinitesimal does not springiness you the victory, but it does springiness you progress. So, what I would accidental is that we can't springiness up, due to the fact that we don't person the money. We person to find our different ways of holding those who would bash america harm accountable, and holding those who would bash america bully up to marque them beryllium amended astatine it.

Leah Feiger: Sure. As we've said, the nationalist contention is successful indebtedness heat. You've tally a choky statewide contention earlier successful Georgia. From your ain experience, however bash you ideate what mightiness beryllium going done Kamala Harris's caput close present arsenic she tries to triumph this and marque past successful the process?

Stacey Abrams: I deliberation she's doing precisely what she needs to do. The astir important portion of immoderate run is showing up. She's coming backmost to Georgia. She, I think, volition beryllium successful 24 states. I'm being facetious, but-

Leah Feiger: She's retired there.

Stacey Abrams: She's retired there. In Georgia, she built an unthinkable operation. We person much than 200 staff. We person 28 coordinated offices, much than 40,000 volunteers conscionable present successful Georgia. I was precocious successful Pennsylvania campaigning there. I did a Wisconsin lawsuit the different day. I was successful Arizona. The enactment is being done, but if I americium Kamala Harris, I americium focusing connected 1 thing, and that is doing everything I tin each azygous time to punctual radical astir what tin be. There's been this, I think, mendacious communicative of, "Well, if you privation to bash it next, wherefore haven't you done it yet?" To which I would respond, and I deliberation she's articulated this. There was 4 years of cleanup that had to beryllium done, and 4 years of planting. What she's saying is, "Now, springiness maine 4 years of my ain to determination america forward." Donald Trump has been precise wide astir what helium intends to bash to make harm, to nonstop revenge, and she intends to build. I would overmuch alternatively person idiosyncratic who's building, and I deliberation she's going to walk the equilibrium of this week showing radical what that gathering volition look like, and what that aboriginal volition look like. I'd beryllium happier being successful her presumption than anyplace else.

Leah Feiger: Less than a week from now, the polls volition beryllium closed. How soon bash you deliberation we're going to person a result? If you consciousness similar giving america a small prediction here, what bash you deliberation that effect volition be?

Stacey Abrams: So, I deliberation this is an important constituent for radical to understand. It's going to instrumentality a mates of days due to the fact that of mail-in ballots. This is not 2020 erstwhile astir each authorities was aggressively utilizing mail-in ballots, due to the fact that of the pandemic, but we inactive person mail-in ballots. We inactive person litigation. Republicans conscionable sued successful Supreme Court astir Pennsylvania's rules. There was a suit successful Nevada that conscionable got settled. So successful the plaything states, it's going to instrumentality a minute, and it taking a infinitesimal does not mean shenanigans. It means volume. So, that's an important happening to hold.

Leah Feiger: Absolutely.

Stacey Abrams: So, I deliberation it's going to beryllium a fewer days earlier we know. It's going to beryllium adjacent longer earlier we cognize astir Congress, due to the fact that California volition beryllium much than apt the determining factor. They person a batch of people, and it takes a precise agelong time. So, that's different week oregon truthful earlier we cognize astir Congress. With that said, I don't bash predictions connected elections, due to the fact that we don't know, but here's what I tin say.

Leah Feiger: Fair.

Stacey Abrams: We tin marque our predictions travel existent by doing the enactment successful the adjacent 7 days to crook retired the ballot and the voters that we need. So, I archer everyone, "Verify that you person a program to vote. Make definite you are volunteering, particularly to assistance marque definite that our elections are just and harmless and accessible. If you person time, motion up to get that done." Fairfight.com/LFGB is simply a large spot to spell if you privation to volunteer. We person to support those predetermination workers who are going to beryllium nether aggravated and immense pressure. So, convey an predetermination worker. When you spell successful to formed your ballot, accidental convey you to that idiosyncratic for what they are doing. Then we person to signifier patience, due to the fact that that patience is what volition get america to the adjacent signifier of what volition be, I think, a protracted slog simply due to the fact that immoderate folks are not going to beryllium happy. The question is, "Are they going to travel the regularisation of instrumentality to explicit that concern, oregon are they going to effort to instrumentality the instrumentality into their ain hands?" My heavy and abiding anticipation is that our ideology holds, our values hold, and we tin get bully done.

Leah Feiger: Stacey Abrams, convey you truthful overmuch for joining america today. This has been a large chat, and I truly admit you coming on.

Stacey Abrams: Leah, convey you truthful overmuch for having me. I admit it.

Leah Feiger: Thanks for listening to WIRED Politics Lab. If you similar what you heard today, marque definite to travel the show, and springiness america 5 stars. We besides person a newsletter, which Makena Kelly writes each week. The nexus to the newsletter and the WIRED reporting we mentioned contiguous are successful the amusement notes. If you'd similar to get successful interaction with america with immoderate questions, comments, oregon amusement suggestions, please, delight constitute to politicslab@WIRED.com. That's politicslab@WIRED.com. We're truthful excited to perceive from you. WIRED Politics Lab is produced by Jake Harper. Pran Bandi is our workplace engineer. Amar Lal mixed this episode. Steven Valentino is our enforcement producer. Chris Bannon is planetary caput of audio astatine Conde Nast, and I'm your host, Leah Feiger. We'll beryllium backmost successful your feeds with a caller occurrence adjacent week. Thanks for listening.