Why the Grammys need to change, with CEO Harvey Mason Jr.

Today, I’m talking with Harvey Mason Jr. He’s the CEO of the Recording Academy, which is the nonprofit enactment that puts connected the Grammy Awards — the astir prestigious awards successful euphony — and runs the MusiCares charity, which helps artists successful need. Harvey is simply a fascinating feline — arsenic a instrumentalist and producer, he’s worked connected projects with Destiny’s Child, Britney Spears, Michael Jackson, Girls’ Generation, and much arsenic good arsenic produced the euphony successful movies similar Pitch Perfect and Straight Outta Compton. 

Harvey’s had a batch of enactment to bash since helium started arsenic CEO of the Recording Academy successful January 2020 — his predecessor was ousted conscionable 5 months into the relation successful a swirl of scandals, and the Grammys — on with the Emmys and Oscars — were facing a reckoning with monolithic contention and sex inequality successful the awards. On apical of each that, the euphony manufacture came crashing to a halt during the covid-19 pandemic, arsenic unrecorded concerts and awards shows stopped happening, making MusiCares much important than ever. 

So Harvey’s been engaged these past fewer years. Now, the satellite of euphony is having a moment, with immoderate of the biggest tours ever and an wholly caller harvest of emerging large artists. The 2025 Grammy nominations were conscionable announced, and you tin spot it successful the list: newcomers similar Chappell Roan and Sabrina Carpenter person been nominated for Album of the Year close alongside Beyoncé and Taylor Swift. 

If you’re a regular Decoder listener, you cognize that I’m ever saying to ticker what’s happening to the euphony manufacture due to the fact that it’s a preview into what volition hap to each different originative manufacture 5 years from now. The Grammys and the Recording Academy are nary exception.

For the past 50 years, CBS has paid a immense interest to the Recording Academy to broadcast the Grammys, and the Recording Academy takes that wealth and uses it to money things similar MusiCares and lobby for authorities that protects artists’ rights. This isn’t a concealed — you’ll perceive Harvey laic it each retired bluntly. The Grammys are wherever the gross comes from.

That each worked successful an epoch wherever accepted TV networks had wealth to walk and commanded a immense magnitude of attraction — but that epoch is over. Harvey precocious decided to move the Grammys woody to Disney starting successful 2027, which volition not lone bring the amusement to ABC but besides perchance to Disney Plus and Hulu. Live TV is progressively driven by sports and awards shows similar the Grammys, truthful I wanted to cognize however Harvey was reasoning astir this deal, what the anticipation of streaming organisation would mean for the amusement itself, and however overmuch helium thought the Grammys needed the prestige and marque powerfulness of a institution similar Disney arsenic opposed to the wider organisation of thing similar YouTube.

We besides talked astir the Grammy Awards themselves — what the categories are, however the winners are chosen, and who those winners get to be. That’s been Harvey’s biggest project, actually: the Recording Academy conscionable completely requalified its excavation of voting members for the Grammys arsenic portion of a yearslong effort to bring successful younger voters and much women and radical of color. 

At the aforesaid time, the net means the precise thought of euphony genres has been getting blurrier and blurrier for implicit a decade. I asked Harvey to specify “pop music,” and you’ll perceive him deliberation done the answer. I besides wanted to cognize however Harvey’s reasoning astir fandoms and stan culture successful the discourse of awards that are expected to beryllium astir recognizing art, not conscionable popularity. 

And of course, Harvey and I besides talked astir AI, which is poised to disrupt astir each originative manufacture and which has already caused large lawsuits successful the euphony industry. You’ll perceive Harvey explicate that he’s not a reflexive AI hater and that helium thinks there’s a spot for immoderate of those tools successful euphony accumulation — successful fact, helium made the large determination to let euphony made with AI tools to beryllium eligible for the Grammys. But similar galore different radical we’ve talked to, you’ll perceive him tout the irreplaceable, irrepressible benefits of quality creativity — and you’ll besides perceive him admit he’s tense and that sorting it retired is each going to beryllium analyzable and difficult.

I’ll beryllium honorable with you — this is 1 of my favourite Decoder conversations successful a while. I emotion talking astir the euphony industry, and Harvey was unfastened to reasoning done a batch of these issues retired large connected the show.

Okay, Recording Academy CEO Harvey Mason Jr. Here we go.

This transcript has been lightly edited for magnitude and clarity.

Harvey Mason Jr., you’re the CEO of the Recording Academy. Welcome to Decoder.

Thanks, Nilay. Good to beryllium here.

I’m excited to speech to you. As you mightiness know, I’m obsessed with the euphony industry. I deliberation paying attraction to the euphony manufacture is the champion mode to foretell what happens to each different originative manufacture 5 years from now. You evidently person a heavy penetration into that. On apical of that, we’re talking a week earlier Grammy nominations travel out, truthful I’m ever funny successful however that works and however you’re reasoning astir that process. The Grammys are specified an important portion of the taste calendar each year.

And we person to speech astir AI. There’s conscionable an infinite magnitude of AI. I consciousness similar the readers mightiness propulsion maine disconnected a ledge if each Decoder isn’t astir AI. Or if I support going, they mightiness propulsion maine disconnected a ledge. We’ll find out.

One oregon the other.

Let’s commencement with the basics. You’ve been successful this occupation arsenic CEO since 2020. There was a large shakeup successful the Recording Academy. There was the lockdown. The euphony manufacture hibernated for a minute. We each did a batch of Zoom recordings. Now we’re backmost into monolithic tours. There’s a caller epoch of stars emerging. Let’s commencement with the precise basics, though. Tell radical astir the Recording Academy and its information successful the euphony industry.

Well, it starts with our show, and astir radical cognize america from the Grammys show. We’ve been doing the Grammys amusement for 66 years. I’ve been doing them since, arsenic you said, 4 years agone arsenic the CEO. The Grammy amusement celebrates music, lifts creators, and showcases each the antithetic genres of music. The Recording Academy produces the Grammys and generates gross from the show. We usage that revenue, paid by CBS for a licensing fee, to [support] each our programs passim the year. So it’s advocacy, warring for the rights of euphony people, and talking astir AI. We’re doing a ton of worldly successful that space: making definite quality creators are protected and different copyright intelligence spot protections that we’re moving on. We walk millions and millions of dollars each twelvemonth advocating for the rights of euphony people. So that’s the 1 area.

The different country is simply a philanthropic enactment that’s wrong the Academy called MusiCares. MusiCares is the give-back enactment for anybody who’s a musician. You don’t person to beryllium a member. If you’re a nonrecreational moving successful the euphony manufacture and you request assistance — if you are sick, you’re facing a cause addiction, a intelligence wellness crisis, crashed your car, oregon idiosyncratic broke successful and stole your guitar — these are things that MusiCares takes attraction of. And again, millions and millions of dollars each year. During covid, we gave $50 cardinal successful assistance to euphony radical who needed help. Then we bash a batch done our museum, similar acquisition and preservation of music, making definite the adjacent procreation of kids is exposed to music. And if I didn’t person an instrumentality successful my manus oregon we didn’t cognize astir each the antithetic genres of music, I wouldn’t person had a career. So, [we’re] making definite we bash a batch of enactment done that. And that’s what is funded and financed by our amusement and our performance. That’s benignant of the operation of the Recording Academy.

That’s truly absorbing to me. You described immoderate precise important philanthropic work. I deliberation of MusiCares arsenic a stabilizing unit successful the euphony industry. There isn’t a large societal services nett successful the United States. Touring musicians don’t person regular jobs, and that provides indispensable stableness for those folks. There’s a batch determination that I deliberation is important.

You’re being precise unfastened that the gross comes from the amusement and from a licensing woody with CBS to administer the show. We’ll speech successful a small spot astir wherever that woody is going and however it’s changing, due to the fact that the Academy just announced it’s leaving CBS successful a mates years, but let’s instrumentality with the contiguous time for a minute.

If I look astatine that successful the broadest imaginable way, CBS is paying for a tv show, and that TV amusement is paying to supply indispensable stableness to touring philharmonic artists. That mightiness beryllium a small weird. Does it ever onslaught you that it’s not each perfectly aligned?

No, it really strikes maine arsenic being incredibly aligned due to the fact that the thought of the amusement is to payment creators. Even conscionable connected its face, the amusement itself, we cognize the economical interaction the amusement has connected creators, songwriters, producers, and engineers. All the ancillary oregon tangentially connected radical who enactment successful our industry, they each get a assistance from our show. The streaming goes up, the depletion goes up, and the quality to circuit goes up. So that helps the originative community. And past each the gross that we create, each of the gross that we enactment into it comes from that show. The large drivers for gross for the Academy are the show, different Grammy Week activities, summons sales, and sponsorships, each of which truly hap during Grammy Week. So, each that wealth goes backmost into serving the community.

For me, the lone happening that’s a small spot misaligned is the deficiency of accusation that the originative assemblage has astir wherefore we bash the amusement and that we adjacent bash these different things. A batch of radical conscionable think, “Oh, the Grammys are conscionable the show.” And I walk a batch of clip and vigor — and we’ve got to bash a amended occupation of this arsenic an Academy — letting creatives, artists, and producers cognize the crushed that this amusement is truthful important is due to the fact that it creates a clump of money. I hatred to beryllium truthful crass, but it’s currency that we tin usage and deploy it backmost into our euphony community. So the amended the amusement is, the amended the ratings are, the much wealth we tin make from that show, the much wealth that comes straight backmost into our industry.

That’s portion of the crushed I asked the question that way. I recognize it was beauteous blunt. But that thought that the amusement — which is simply a defining broadcast tv accumulation — is the happening that stabilizes the euphony industry, and the mode that it stabilizes the euphony industry, I think, is simply a small opaque to astir people.

It is.

It sounds similar it’s opaque to immoderate of your members.

It is.

But it besides seems similar a happening you tin poke astatine and say, “Is this however it should beryllium structured?” And truthful I’m curious: You’re caller successful the role; obviously, you’ve been done a batch of change. I privation to inquire you astir the TV broadside of it, right? I ideate you person immoderate position connected the thought that broadcast tv is simply a affluent root of gross since that is changing arsenic well. But is this however it should beryllium structured? If you could alteration that, would you privation to diversify that gross astatine all?

A 1000 percent. That’s 1 of my large goals for my clip present astatine the Academy: to marque definite that we’re not truthful reliant connected conscionable TV. Having said that, we are exploring a batch of antithetic opportunities and however to champion utilize the marque portion inactive supporting euphony radical and doing things wrong our mission. We don’t privation to conscionable spell merchantability java mugs oregon conscionable bash antithetic random things. We privation to marque definite that it’s connected brand, it’s connected mission, and it stays the astir coveted grant due to the fact that it’s our peers voting for our peers. So, we privation to marque definite we support that successful mind. And it’s got to beryllium a portion of immoderate we bash to grow it. I would emotion to speech astir misalignment; I would emotion to find an further mode to make a clump of wealth and resources that we could usage for our community. But close now, our woody with CBS is the happening that moves the needle the astir for america and allows america to person the maximum interaction wrong our community.

Yeah, let’s travel backmost to that successful a minute. Let’s conscionable proceed connected however the enactment is structured for 1 second. How galore radical are astatine the Recording Academy? What does the concern look like?

On the unit side, astir 300 radical betwixt our antithetic affiliates. As I said, it’s the Academy, it’s the Latin Academy, the [Grammy] Museum, and MusiCares.

Those 300 radical — they’re distributed equally. How galore radical enactment connected MusiCares versus the amusement itself, for example?

It fluctuates, but the bulk of the radical enactment for the Recording Academy. Approximately 200 radical astatine the Academy, and past immoderate divided betwixt the Latin Academy, the [Grammy] Museum, and MusiCares.

How galore radical are spending each of their clip conscionable moving connected the Grammy Awards each year?

Zero. That’s a seasonal effort. That’s thing that we do. It’s a six-month focus. We’re ever reasoning astir the show, and we’re truly directing a batch of our efforts towards the outcomes that volition hap connected the amusement — but the amusement accumulation is precise circumstantial to a fewer months of the year. The remainder of the year, the team’s moving connected awards, connected membership, connected advocacy, connected each the things that I talked astir passim the Academy. And we person a large staff: a DEI department, People and Culture. There are a batch of antithetic departments that are focused connected making definite that the Academy tin person that interaction and that we are increasing the close membership. And [if] you speech astir the awards and our quality to monetize our intelligence spot oregon our Grammys done a show, [then] we person to person the close awards. So you person to person the close awards section reasoning astir that.

You’ve got to person the close rank section because, without the close members, you’re not going to get the close results. And successful bid to enactment relevant, we person to person applicable members. So we’ve conscionable gone done a rank overhaul; 1 100 percent of our members person been requalified. We person 66 percent of our members who are each caller wrong the past 5 years. We’ve conscionable added 3,000 caller women voters. We’ve got astir 40 percent of radical of color. Those are not the numbers that we had 4 years ago. So we’re each precise arrogant arsenic a unit and arsenic our elected enactment astir the enactment that’s been done to alteration our membership. Which then, of course, changes the awards, changes our show, and changes our quality to make revenue.

It’s interesting. I interrogation truthful galore tech CEOs connected this show, and I inquire them what their products are and however they’re structured to marque those products. They springiness maine answers that are broadly familiar. We person a plan team, we person an engineering team, we’ve got a go-to-market team.

Your merchandise is the awards, right? It seems precise wide conscionable talking to you for the archetypal 5 minutes here: you’re precise focused connected the Grammy Awards arsenic a product. And what you’re describing is that we request the close members to ballot connected those awards, and past we request the close squad members to determine what those awards should be. So, successful the end, erstwhile we enactment connected a TV show, it’s the close database of awards, and we travel to the outcomes that radical want.

How overmuch fiddling bash you bash with that twelvemonth to year? Because I deliberation the worth of the Grammys is that it is an institution. So immoderate things person to enactment the same, and immoderate things evidently person to change, arsenic you’re describing. How overmuch bash you deliberation astir that balance?

I deliberation astir it constantly, to archer you the truth. And “fiddling” is simply a nicer way, oregon possibly a much playful way, of saying it, but it’s truly the improvement of what we do, an iteration astir everything astatine the Academy. And that has been a large country of absorption for maine and my absorption squad implicit the past 4 years due to the fact that we are 66 years old. It is an iconic institution, if I could accidental so. And it means a batch to a batch of people, including radical successful the euphony community, but besides euphony fans. So we privation to beryllium respectful of what that is and what it has been. But for me, we cannot spend to beryllium stagnant. Music moves truthful fast, and you and your viewers / listeners cognize technology. The mode radical are consuming euphony and creation is evolving truthful rapidly that we person to germinate arsenic an organization.

So I walk a batch of clip thinking: How tin we adjust? How tin we pivot? How tin we spot astir the corner? What’s happening next? So a batch of that work, I person to say, comes from our rank due to the fact that the rank truly submits the changes. They taxable proposals. What are we going to grant successful euphony this year? How are we going to rubric this caller category? What’s the nomenclature down this genre of music? And the crushed it’s truthful important is that the members are the ones that know. They cognize amended than I do, they cognize amended than a batch of the unit due to the fact that our members are euphony professionals. So they mightiness perceive thing successful the caller genre that’s coming up and beryllium like, “Oh, you guys aren’t catching on. We person to grant this music.” And that’s however we proceed to perpetuate excellence successful euphony truthful we tin showcase antithetic things. It’s constant… Did you telephone it “tweaking” oregon “fiddling”? It’s changeless fiddling.

Tweaking is nicer than fiddling.

It’s changeless fiddling. And that process happens a mates times a twelvemonth done a process of submitting proposals, and past they spell into the trustee room, we vote, our unit adopts them, and they instrumentality spot adjacent twelvemonth connected the show.

How bash you negociate the hostility betwixt a nonrecreational enactment that creates the awards, nonrecreational members who ballot connected the awards, and past making the Grammys for possibly the astir mainstream imaginable assemblage connected CBS, which is possibly the astir mainstream of the broadcast networks? And each anybody truly wants to spot is Taylor Swift oregon Beyoncé triumph each award. There’s a mismatch betwixt fandom civilization connected the 1 side, peculiarly successful music, and stan civilization — to enactment a much precise sanction connected it — and past a clump of euphony professionals saying, “Actually, this John Batiste medium is the champion medium of the year.” There’s a existent equilibrium determination that seems hard to manage.

Balance is nice. It’s a collision sometimes. It tin beryllium contentious; it tin beryllium controversial. But for us, and I’ll accidental for maine personally, what I emotion astir it is there’s nary different grant similar it due to the fact that it’s not astir popularity. It’s not astir who got the astir streams oregon who had the astir likes. It’s genuinely astir the radical who are successful the manufacture and who are moving time successful and time retired astir music, listening to the records oregon songs oregon albums, and past deciding which 1 they deliberation is the best. And it’s subjective. We cognize that. It’s not a hoops game; it’s each up to the mentation of the listener.

But what makes our amusement invaluable arsenic of now, and possibly this isn’t ever going to beryllium the case, but arsenic of present the astir invaluable tv amusement successful regards to euphony is due to the fact that it’s not conscionable astir popularity. It’s not predictable. It’s astir the voters giving the grant for the twelvemonth to the artists oregon euphony that they love. And it besides attracts a antithetic benignant of information oregon attraction from the creator assemblage due to the fact that it’s a precise desirable happening to person your peers archer you you’ve done thing peculiar successful that year, which I deliberation is meaningful. So there’s an other gravitas oregon value to the Grammys, which I deliberation translates to the viewers.

How bash you deliberation astir that successful the discourse of the disapproval that the Grammys often gets from the larger nationalist oregon from listeners? I’ll springiness you 1 circumstantial illustration conscionable due to the fact that it is close successful beforehand of america arsenic we caput into Grammy season.

Beyoncé just doesn’t win Album of the Year oregon Record of the Year. These are the awards radical privation her to triumph arsenic 1 of the large artists successful our space, 1 of the taste icons of our time. She conscionable does not triumph them. I don’t cognize what other to say. We’re heading into information season. I deliberation this speech is going to unfastened up again. What bash you deliberation astir that? That’s what a huge, large acceptable of consumers wants from you from this show.

I perceive them large and clear. I would emotion her to triumph Album of the Year. I would besides emotion a clump of different radical to triumph Album of the Year. I deliberation there’s large music. I deliberation it’s besides subjective. Beyoncé evidently has a ton of precise loyal and supportive fans, for which I don’t blasted them. Beyoncé’s won a ton of Grammy Awards, truthful we truly respect her creativity and her artistry. There’s nary question astir that arsenic a voting body, determination are antithetic things that hap passim the twelvemonth that the voters sometimes resonate with successful definite categories and different categories it doesn’t resonate. So, it’s truly hard to predict. 

I americium excited for this twelvemonth due to the fact that there’s been truthful galore astonishing records. There’s been large enactment by immoderate astonishing artists, truthful I’m precise optimistic for this year. As acold arsenic who wins what, who gets snubbed, who’s happy, and who’s mad, I can’t foretell that. But what I tin foretell is that the voters volition bash their precise champion to perceive to the euphony to measure the music. The different happening I tin accidental is we besides person a precise antithetic voting assemblage present than we had 3 years ago, 5 years ago, oregon 10 years ago.

That voting body, that’s the happening you turned over, that’s this year’s large task you announced? The change? You said earlier that you requalified 1 100 percent of the members. That’s 1 mode to alteration the result — to alteration the voters.

The lone way.

Well, the different mode is to alteration the awards themselves, which I’ll travel to. I deliberation we prosecute that connected 2 tracks. But “we’re going to alteration who’s voting” is 1 mode to alteration them. Did you actively think, “Okay, we’re getting to immoderate of the incorrect answers successful who wins these awards; we’ve got to alteration leadership”?

It didn’t travel truthful overmuch from the answers. Maybe, personally, it did. I’ll backmost that up. But what it truly stemmed from was looking astatine the constitution of our voting assemblage and past looking astatine the constitution of euphony creators and who’s making it versus who’s consuming it versus who’s voting connected it. And we wanted to marque definite our rank was typical of our euphony community. And erstwhile I got here, it conscionable wasn’t. We didn’t person capable radical of color. We didn’t person capable women. We didn’t person definite practice successful definite genres, successful the creation community, the stone community, oregon the country. So we needed to rebalance oregon tweak or, I can’t retrieve the connection you used, which I liked truthful much... fiddle. We needed to fiddle with the membership.

We needed to fiddle with it and marque definite that it was aligned with not conscionable the satellite but, much importantly, and specifically, with euphony and the euphony community. We had to look astatine the genres. What genres are truly popular? Do we person capable members successful those genres to measure it accurately? What are the caller genres coming up that we privation to marque definite that we’re capable to construe and ballot for and get bully outcomes? Then if that’s a caller one, we person to marque definite we person members to enactment that. Otherwise, having a caller class with cipher who tin recognize the nuance oregon the good points of that genre voting is simply a failed concept. And truthful we privation to marque definite that the voters align with euphony and however it’s being made and consumed.

You’re astatine the extremity of the process now. You’ve requalified a 100 percent of people. You’ve added caller members. Do you deliberation you’re there? Do you deliberation you person country to grow, change, and germinate further? To fiddle immoderate more?

We inactive person country to grow, nary question. Where our goals were, we acceptable those goals beauteous aggressively. We met them a spot early, actually, but determination volition proceed to beryllium caller agelong goals and caller things that I privation to execute with our membership. And our rank squad is amazing. They’re truthful proactive. And we person large committees astir our rank squad and elected enactment who are truly passionate astir membership. And arsenic we said, until I perceive your ideas for now, that’s the mode we deliberation we tin impact the alteration successful the outcomes, impact the relevance of our awards, and proceed to turn the Grammy marque connected a planetary basis.

The different mode that astatine slightest comes to caput for maine is the awards themselves, and possibly you’ll disagree. There are the halo awards: record, song, album. Underneath that, determination are conscionable a clump of categorizations, Best Rap Album versus Best Rock Album. That implies that those genres exist, and you tin neatly benignant albums into them. The Grammys lone got escaped of Best Urban Album recently. That is simply a class with a agelong and loaded history. Maybe we don’t request that 1 anymore. But what the net has done to euphony broadly is truly blur genres.

Yes, smashed it up.

Completely, endlessly blur genres successful ways that are exciting, successful ways that are frankly confusing. And possibly the lone genre near is country, which is wherefore everyone’s making a state medium this year. Because you tin conscionable spell determination and accidental it’s antithetic than what you were doing before. You could alteration those awards. You could conscionable requalify each the genres, too, and say, “Here are immoderate hard lines.” Do you ever deliberation astir that?

Well, I’d emotion to perceive your thoughts much erstwhile you speech astir hard lines. The extremity for the genre awards is to effort and find immoderate guardrails successful which to acceptable music, and that’s precise hard. You’re talking about, again, creation and past someone’s mentation of creation and however to mates those successful the antithetic buckets truthful the radical tin measure them comparatively. So, we don’t privation to spot hip-hop going against stone due to the fact that they’re truthful dissimilar. Dissimilar audiences, I think, dissimilar radical who are creating. But arsenic euphony becomes much and much blurred unneurotic — oregon mashed up, I conjecture I’ll accidental — determination volition beryllium immoderate conversations astir however we’re going to rubric the awards, however we’re going to see them successful antithetic fields, and who should beryllium voting connected them. Right now, we person antithetic fields. So you person a stone field, and nether that volition beryllium a clump of antithetic genres of rock. Then, you’ll person a hip-hop tract and a classical field. 

And the mode our voting works is that we promote our voters to ballot successful 3 fields. So you don’t privation idiosyncratic who doesn’t cognize thing astir state conscionable going into that class due to the fact that their favourite creator is implicit there, oregon vice versa. You don’t request idiosyncratic voting successful classical who lone knows 1 classical artist. So, the mode we effort to bash it is to person qualified voters ballot for the euphony that they like. Now, to your point, arsenic euphony changes and genre walls travel down, we’ll beryllium capable to unfastened that up a small spot more. But that is, again, thing that volition beryllium determined by our nonrecreational euphony community, our members. They’ll say, “Hey, Harvey, you cognize what? Membership squad astatine the Academy, you cognize what? We deliberation stone and jazz dependable similar it’s coming together. Let’s enactment that successful 1 category.” And erstwhile that happens, due to the fact that our members are telling america these things, it volition alteration the mode we vote.

Can you conscionable bash maine a favour and effort to specify popular euphony successful 2024?

Pop euphony successful 2024? 

I consciousness similar I could specify hip-hop. I consciousness similar I could instrumentality a tally astatine defining rock. I don’t cognize that I could specify popular music.

Pop euphony is simply a spot amorphous due to the fact that it changes from twelvemonth to year, and it has thing to bash with the word and the rubric itself: “pop” oregon “popular,” and it’s the genre that tends to person the choruses, the sing-along melodies, the close benignant of accumulation and vocalists. It’s precise hard due to the fact that determination are a batch of records that get lumped into pop. And arsenic a creator, I tin make it, and I tin amusement you connected a piano, and I could sing it, but it is simply a hard explanation to nail down. The voters thin to bash a truly bully occupation of that and making definite that they’re voting for euphony they consciousness should beryllium successful that category. And the mode our labels, artists, and autarkic labels submit, they taxable their euphony wherever they privation to be. And truthful if idiosyncratic feels like, “Hey, this is simply a popular record,” it’ll spell into pop. And for the astir part, that’s wherever it’s evaluated.

I conscionable deliberation there’s thing truthful absorbing happening with genres due to the fact that of the emergence of the internet, and we’re good into it now. I deliberation Taylor Swift wrote a portion astir the decease of genre 10 years ago, I think, for the Wall Street Journal. There conscionable seems to beryllium chaos successful the manufacture that possibly fans person figured out, but the manufacture itself is inactive struggling with it. Whether that’s Lil Nas X ages agone oregon Cowboy Carter and Beyoncé this year, it feels similar we don’t rather privation to gully these lines anymore, but we request them successful bid to person things similar the Grammy Awards oregon person capable awards to springiness retired alternatively of 1 grant for song.

All music.

And is that thing you’re actively talking about? Does that travel up with your members oregon the unit of the Recording Academy?

It does.

Where bash these arguments truly travel from? Where bash these arguments land?

They onshore by saying, our members volition archer america erstwhile it’s time. And the members, again, are professionals. They’re each radical moving successful studios and connected tours, arsenic good arsenic engineers, writers, producers, artists, and singers. They’re the professionals. And erstwhile they say, “You cognize what? We’re bushed of genres, oregon we’re bushed of separating radical and putting them successful boxes,” past we’ll evolve. I tin committedness you that due to the fact that our enactment has ne'er moved faster oregon been much fluid. We’ve ne'er listened person to our members oregon our euphony community. So erstwhile that starts to happen, we volition marque definite that things adjust.

Do you ever deliberation astir conscionable doing random micro-genres? Every year, there’s a micro-genre. I’ll conscionable prime drill. Drill music, it was a moment. It’s present benignant of everywhere. You tin perceive it, successful fact, successful each of hip-hop. So it has devolved into not being a micro-genre but conscionable being a dependable that’s going to travel and go. Sounds travel and go. But past year, you could person conscionable been like, “We’re going to person a drill category, and here’s the champion drill creator of the year, and past adjacent year, possibly we won’t person that category, and we’ll person thing else.” Is that thing that comes up? Is that an enactment that you’ve thought about? Because it’s thing I’ve heard proposed.

Yes. And what needs to hap is, again, the voters request to person expertise successful the genre. So if we had capable voters who knew precisely what was going connected successful the drill genre of music, past they would popular up and say, “Guys, we’re missing a full radical of euphony here. We request to grant it.” We would make the category. We’d spell up successful the adjacent show, and they would past vote. But without that movement, without sustainable momentum down the genre that translates into members, we would beryllium popping caller genres into the amusement without the enactment and the underpinning that it needs to beryllium applicable and accurate.

If we enactment a drill class successful present and we didn’t person capable voters and we had the incorrect outcomes due to the fact that conscionable immoderate random radical started voting, “Oh, I cognize this name, fto maine ballot for them,” it would beryllium disrespectful to the creators successful that genre. It would besides be, I think, detrimental to the marque of the Academy and the Grammys. So erstwhile the clip is close for those caller genres, I similar to deliberation that they’ll beryllium there. We conscionable added the champion African Performance. You spot the emergence of Amapiano and each the antithetic genres, including Afro Beats, and we had the voters; we had the support. They projected the award. It’s present in.

Let maine inquire you the large Decoder question, and past I privation to speech astir that question successful practice.

You evidently person a batch of decisions to make. “What awards are we going to give, and to whom?” are immoderate of the biggest decisions there. What’s your model for making those decisions?

The model for making decisions astir awards is precise antithetic from my idiosyncratic model astir decisions that I’d similar to instrumentality astatine the Academy. As it relates to awards, it’s a precise straightforward process. Our members present the awards oregon different changes and proposals. They’re discussed done an due committee, whether it’s readying and governance oregon awards and nominations; it goes done the committee system, and they ballot it up oregon down. It past goes to the committee of trustees, and it gets voted up oregon down, and I don’t person a ballot successful those things. I effort to marque definite the conversations are going successful the close direction, but that truly comes down to our committee and our chair. Once those things are enactment successful place, past I person to determine however to instrumentality them. And that’s a beauteous straightforward process astir awards. But possibly the broader question you’re asking is: however bash I CEO? How bash I marque the decisions successful my role? 

And I walk a batch of clip listening, to beryllium honest. And I’m not definite what the reply is for immoderate of the different radical you’ve interviewed oregon different CEOs, but I don’t unreal to cognize much than I know. I’m a beingness learner, not a knower. And truthful erstwhile it comes clip for a decision, I thin to determination comparatively quickly. I don’t beryllium and stew. I deliberation perfection tin sometimes get successful the mode of making progress. So I’ll listen, I’ll assemble my team, I’ll get the accusation that I request to marque an educated and strategical decision, and past I’ll measurement it. To this point, my instincts and my digit person been connected the pulse of what our enactment wants oregon needs, and our members look to beryllium resonating with the decisions that person been happening. But if my idiosyncratic sensation oregon feelings autumn retired of favour with that, past it would truly alteration my decision-making process due to the fact that a batch of what I bash is stitchery the accusation and determine from present what I deliberation is right.

It’s astir similar making music, to archer you the truth. I was a songwriter and shaper for years. If you’re making euphony for everybody else, and you’re trying to conjecture what’s next, and you’re trying to marque radical happy, you’re going to marque the aforesaid euphony that everyone other is making. But if you’re making euphony that turns you on, that excites you, that you emotion arsenic a creator, and past you travel out, arsenic agelong arsenic your tastes are aligned with the consumers, you’ll win. So, I consciousness the aforesaid mode successful the mode I similar to tally our organization: a batch of listening, a batch of collaborating, and past trying to marque smart, swift, thoughtful decisions.

I consciousness similar a batch of the different CEOs I speech to would beryllium well-served if they spent immoderate clip trying to marque immoderate euphony arsenic opposed to conscionable trying to marque AI. [Laughs]

Let maine enactment that into practice. You made a truly large determination precise recently. This week, you announced that you’re going to permission CBS. You’re going to take the Grammys to Disney and watercourse crossed Disney Plus, Hulu, and ABC. You’ve said it already: CBS represents astir 1 100 percent of the gross of the organization. You’ve been connected CBS for 50 years. That’s a large change. That’s a large determination — to spell to a caller partner, caller platforms, and caller distribution. Why marque that decision, and how’d you marque it?

Definitely to spot change, a transformational turning constituent successful our organization. It was a precise hard decision, to beryllium honest, due to the fact that CBS has been a large partner. They’ve done astonishing enactment with us, I believe, for 54 shows. When I came into this role, I realized that we had 4 years until determination would beryllium a renegotiation, and I truly had a imaginativeness and a program for wherever I thought the Academy needed to go. And partially, that’s wherefore they person maine successful this role: to travel to fig retired what that imaginativeness is and marque definite we’re executing it, aligning with the committee of trustees and our enforcement enactment connected the enforcement committee.

We cognize what has to happen. The thought down who is going to beryllium our spouse to assistance america get determination was a large portion of that decision-making process. We met with respective people. Ultimately, [we] ended up going with a antithetic spouse due to the fact that it truly aligned with our aboriginal vision: wherever we wanted to spell and however we wanted to proceed to physique and turn successful the enactment but, much importantly, however we could service much radical and execute successful our ngo successful a broader, wider, deeper scale. So we’re truly excited astir the future.

You had to decide, though, right? You travel onto the job, you’re renegotiating 4 years, the deal’s up, you person to instrumentality with CBS, oregon you person to spell find a caller partner. After 50 years, it feels similar possibly the default was to accidental to CBS, and the archetypal determination was to say, “Actually, I’m going to unfastened this up.” How did you travel to that infinitesimal wherever you thought, “I’ve got to marque definite I cognize what my options are?”

That was truly the decision-making factor. I wanted to cognize what our options were and marque definite that we were exploring each possibilities. I’m successful this relation temporarily, for nevertheless agelong I’m here, but I’m truly a fiduciary and a steward of the brand. I deliberation it’s an instauration that needs to beryllium protected. It’s a not-for-profit. We’re not doing this different than to service euphony people. So the thought was: however tin we scope the champion deal? How tin we find the spouse that astir aligns with the aboriginal imaginativeness of the organization? So, it was an accidental to research the market. I thought that lone made sense, adjacent with the 54-year past that we had with CBS, again, being large partners. I deliberation anyone would accidental if you person the accidental to spot what other is there, you should instrumentality a look and effort to find that close alignment going forward.

Was determination a bidding war? Did Disney conscionable amusement up and accidental we’re going to wage much than everybody else? Did you person different options?

I volition accidental we had different options. Probably won’t spell excessively overmuch deeper than that, conscionable retired of respect for our partners connected some sides. CBS has been astonishing to enactment with, and I besides truly look guardant to seeing what’s going to travel adjacent successful our caller partnership.

When I deliberation astir the worth that CBS brought implicit that expanse of fifty-plus years, they are 1 of the 3 large broadcast networks successful the United States. They person a Tiffany Network. They really broadcast successful somewhat higher prime than immoderate of the different networks, which I ever admit astir CBS. But they had a organisation monopoly. They were conscionable a nationally broadcast TV web that came into everyone’s homes. They were connected each cablegram system. That’s however TV utilized to work. That is broken, right? Cord cutting is each implicit the place. People aren’t adjacent utilizing over-the-air antennas anymore.

That’s conscionable not however it works. And the large organisation is successful streaming. CBS does person immoderate streaming successful the mix. There’s a full analyzable communicative to beryllium told astir Paramount and each that implicit there, but Disney’s a small more... It’s precise complicated. [Laughs] Literally, the crippled of Succession is embedded successful maine conscionable mentioning Paramount. Disney evidently has Disney Plus; they’ve got Hulu. Was that what you were looking at, “This is amended organisation to a younger audience, it’s much stable, this is the aboriginal of however radical are going to ticker TV?” It does dependable similar “I request to marque a lucrative TV show” is the bosom of everything your enactment does.

Well, you’ve nailed it. We person to person the close TV partner, not lone for the gross but besides for the aboriginal of the brand, the wellness of the organization, and for the bully of the euphony community. What we bash is effort to assistance euphony and euphony creators, and however we tin bash that connected the widest imaginable standard is thing that I’m ever reasoning about. However, arsenic it relates to CBS and its streaming level versus ABC oregon Disney, I conscionable person to accidental that CBS has been great. We’re going to marque 2 much shows with them. They had a batch of very, precise affirmative aspects of wherefore we’ve been with them and wherefore we mightiness person considered going forward, but we besides had to look astatine the aboriginal of consumption. We person to look astatine the aboriginal of however radical are going to sorb oregon instrumentality successful our show.

Where does it request to beryllium seen? How does it request to beryllium seen? These are each considerations that I’ve been having since I took this relation 4 years ago. So [we’ve] got a mates much large shows to spell with CBS — [I’m] looking guardant to February 2nd this year. Then, aft the adjacent show, we’ll commencement to deliberation astir what this caller woody means. But up until then, you know, your listeners and your viewers know, depletion is changing, tv is changing, digital, streaming, adjacent societal media, however that each plays into however radical are consuming content. Those are each things — arsenic you tin ideate — that were astatine the apical of our minds erstwhile we started reasoning astir however we were going to determination guardant implicit the adjacent 10 years.

When I speech to the CEOs of streaming platforms oregon different kinds of video platforms, the thought that the large catalog isn’t arsenic invaluable arsenic things that are unrecorded comes up implicit and implicit again. You tin spot it close present successful the battles implicit however overmuch to wage for sports rights. Ferocious battles. Because radical volition tune into sports, and they volition marque an assignment to ticker your work to ticker sports. Award shows are close up determination successful the mix, right? People volition ticker grant shows, but grant shows request thing a small antithetic than sports. They request immoderate prestige; they request immoderate organization heft. And it feels like, I don’t know, putting the Grammys connected YouTube is conscionable not arsenic fancy arsenic being anyplace adjacent ABC and Disney. Maybe adjacent putting the Grammys connected Netflix is not arsenic fancy arsenic being determination adjacent Disney and ABC. Did that origin into your decision-making?

Yeah, it each did. The heft, arsenic you called it, was important successful the gravitas down the grant and wherever it’s consumed, and however radical are going to ticker it. There’s inactive thing unsocial and peculiar astir web tv to a batch of consumers. To different sets of consumers, they truly couldn’t attraction little astir that. So, determination is simply a equilibrium oregon good enactment that I wanted to marque definite we walked with immoderate spouse that we articulation forces with.

Let maine propulsion connected that conscionable a small spot due to the fact that there’s a hostility there. The biggest organisation you could person is YouTube. Everybody has it. Maybe you don’t adjacent person a prime to person it anymore. It’s conscionable there. YouTube is conscionable there. Everybody has it. If you wanted the biggest scope for your grant show, you would conscionable enactment it connected YouTube. But that possibly wouldn’t springiness you arsenic overmuch revenue, and it wouldn’t springiness you arsenic overmuch marque shine. What’s the word? Halo. Halo. It wouldn’t springiness you arsenic overmuch revenue, and it astir apt wouldn’t springiness you arsenic overmuch marque halo versus Disney, which is Disney. Is that an existent trade-off you made? “I could get much assemblage connected YouTube, but I would get much marque Halo and possibly gross from Disney”?

They’re each trade-offs, to archer you the truth. And that’s the balance; it’s the juggle that we person to do. How bash we scope the astir consumers oregon viewers truthful that we tin monetize the show? But also, however bash we showcase and assistance artists truthful the astir radical spot them? It’s a finely navigated enactment betwixt those 2 things, and determination are a batch of different considerations arsenic well: the past of the marque sheen, accessibility, and antithetic territories astir the satellite wherever there’s a beingness oregon a absorption for us. So, determination were a batch of factors that went into the calculus of deciding wherever the close location was for us. Hopefully, we consciousness similar we made a bully choice, but I conjecture we’ll spot successful the adjacent 10 years.

When you deliberation astir moving to much internet-native distribution, there’s conscionable a clump of different worldly you tin do. You tin marque it much interactive; you could chopped it up into antithetic pieces. Is that worldly you’re reasoning astir to reinvent the conception of an grant amusement successful that way?

One 1000 percent. We cognize consumers are changing the mode they consume, and their habits are evolving astatine each times. So we’re ever going to effort to beryllium connected the cutting borderline of that. But again, balancing that with making definite we’re showcasing antithetic genres of euphony and it’s not conscionable 1 genre. You’re not conscionable seeing lone a definite radical of creators. We besides privation to marque definite that we’re honoring the contented and the past of the brand. So that on with trying to innovate, trying to marque definite we’re gathering viewers wherever they are and matching their habits with what we’re creating oregon producing, is something, again... This worldly is not easy. None of it is straightforward. And if I were to person assumed the relation oregon taken the reins of the enactment and said, “We’re going to bash the aforesaid thing. We’re conscionable going to march consecutive ahead; we’re going to support making the aforesaid show.” I deliberation that would’ve been the easier route, for sure. But we’re not doing that. 

We’re looking astatine everything: each portion of our experience, each portion of our show, each portion of however we service our members, however we nutrient the show. Maybe you’ve seen implicit the past fewer years however we spot our artists, however we spot the euphony community, however we observe them, however we assistance them, the tone. We nutrient successful a loving way. And I cognize that sounds crazy, but we nutrient successful a mode that brings radical unneurotic and tries to person camaraderie oregon collaboration successful our community. And I deliberation that means thing to the viewer. So whether that means a three-hour show, a three-and-a-half-hour amusement going forward, oregon shorter versions oregon clips, we’re going to beryllium looking astatine each that and doing a batch of caller things implicit the coming years.

Yeah, that was my different question. Broadcast tv imposed a subject connected TV production, whether it’s “We’re going to person thirty-minute sitcoms alternatively of endless, you tin look astatine your telephone streaming shows,” oregon whether it’s, “Boy, this grant amusement has gone connected for a agelong time, and it’s clip to wrapper it up,” there’s a subject that was imposed by the distribution. Streaming conscionable doesn’t person that. You truly could person 10 Grammy Award shows a year. You could person an all-day agelong Grammy Award amusement and amusement radical highlights later. But the compactness and the subject of this is the show, and it begins and ends, which lends immoderate hostility to it and immoderate stakes to it. I cognize you’re saying that’s open, and you’re reasoning astir it, but that seems important to preserve.

Nilay, you are a astute guy. You’re asking maine each the questions that I inquire myself, and I’m going to travel get you to enactment with me, man; you cognize however to deliberation astir this stuff. But it is really, truly astatine the apical of my mind, for maine and for our team, arsenic to however we proceed to beryllium relevant. Because if you bash the aforesaid happening implicit and implicit again, it’s not cool. No one’s going to instrumentality it. No one’s going to beryllium excited astir it. So the hard portion of it is, and I hatred to be, again, ace basal astir it, but it’s revenue. Making definite we’re balancing, being forward-looking, reasoning astir what’s next, however radical are consuming, and however we tin proceed to monetize the marque and the show.

Again, not due to the fact that we privation to marque a profit; that’s not the motivation. The docket is to make much gross truthful that we tin propulsion it backmost into the manufacture and backmost into the community. For us, it’s astir the wellness and the uplifting of music. This worldly is important. Music is truthful dang important, particularly close now, possibly much than ever with the mode the country’s gone, and the world’s gone, with truthful galore disparate ideas and opinions. But I’ve seen it, Nilay, erstwhile I question and erstwhile I spot different parts of the satellite listening to euphony oregon listening to artists. We mightiness person a brainsick disagreement, but erstwhile the euphony comes on, everybody’s dancing and clapping and singing, and it conscionable opens up people’s minds and their eyes.

So, due to the fact that of the powerfulness of euphony and due to the fact that of my content and the Academy’s content successful the powerfulness of music, we’re going to bash everything we tin to effort and marque definite that we’re supporting it, we’re lifting it up, we’re showcasing it, and giving it a accidental to bash what it does. And if that means shortening the show, we’ll bash that. If that means lengthening the show, much artists, little artists, antithetic genres, much voters, we’re going to proceed doing that enactment to alteration and germinate each time truthful that we tin support doing what we request to bash to assistance euphony people.

Let’s speech astir what’s going connected with euphony and wherever the wealth comes from successful this manufacture due to the fact that that seems nether a batch of unit arsenic well. It doesn’t look similar anyone knows the answer, which is wherefore I similar paying truthful overmuch attraction to the euphony industry. We went done the Napster revolution. We are astatine the process extremity of what feels like... Not the process end. We’re astatine what feels similar a plateau successful streaming. Everyone has moved to streaming, and we recognize however the economics work. That seemed unchangeable for a minute. Oops, present comes AI, and that mightiness upend everything erstwhile again. There’s a batch of enactment successful AI successful euphony close now. There’s a batch of controversy. There are immoderate beauteous bully diss tracks made with AI.

Last year, Reservoir Media’s Golnar Khosrowshahi came connected Decoder, and she said, “AI is connected a collision people with the euphony industry.” And she’s buying catalogs near and right. She’s doing it. And she says, “This is simply a collision course.” Last year, you said euphony with AI-generated elements would beryllium Grammy-eligible. So this is an important cheque mark. Okay, we’re going to let immoderate of this successful here. Where bash you deliberation we are close now? We’ve gone done BBL Drizzy, and we’ve gone done immoderate AI-generated beats. There’s a fistful of pieces of authorities that possibly we should speech about. But wherever bash you deliberation the authorities of play is close now?

The authorities of play is truthful uncertain. I’m acrophobic due to the fact that AI, arsenic it relates to quality creativity, scares maine to death. I cognize it has a batch of powerfulness and imaginable to heighten and amplify quality creativity, but close now, we don’t person guardrails successful place. We don’t person immoderate systems oregon processes acceptable up truthful that quality creators tin beryllium protected. So, the authorities of play is that we’ve got to get to enactment arsenic an industry. And I cognize a batch of the smartest radical are investing successful AI, which I wholly recognize due to the fact that it is truthful almighty and has truthful overmuch potential.

But for maine arsenic a musician, arsenic idiosyncratic who besides represents 25,000 members and euphony radical from astir the world, I privation to marque definite that quality creativity is protected, for each the reasons I conscionable said: the value of euphony and the quality for america to archer stories and alteration hearts and minds. I deliberation the quality constituent to that is really, truly dang important. So a small tense that we haven’t got it sorted out. But I’m besides optimistic, to beryllium honest, Nilay, due to the fact that quality creators are not similar computers. We instrumentality the chaos and the uncertainty successful beingness and the worldly that AI hates, and we marque unthinkable creation from it. We are capable to excavation down heavy into immoderate of our astir originative spaces, propulsion retired the adjacent astonishing thing, and marque large creation that I don’t deliberation immoderate machine is going to match.

As overmuch arsenic we’re tense and disquieted astir it, I don’t deliberation you tin archer maine that AI tin make Songs successful the Key of Life, Nevermind, or Illmatic. I don’t spot it happening. So, I privation to marque definite we’re capable to usage AI, and I’m not an AI hater. I deliberation it’s got large potential. I’ve been utilizing it for 8 oregon 9 years successful antithetic forms. I’ve ever been an aboriginal adopter of caller tech, truthful I’m with it. I get it. But we person to marque definite quality creativity is protected, and we person a accidental to marque definite we’re remunerated properly, we person due approvals, and it’s credited properly. Those are the things that are truly important to me.

So, I look astatine the manufacture close now.  I brought up “BBL Drizzy.” I deliberation that bushed was made with Udio, which is 1 of the AI song-generation tools. Udio, and past its competitor, Suno, were sued by a clump of grounds labels due to the fact that they ingested a immense catalog of euphony successful bid to physique those tools and bid connected [them]. That seems similar a comet that’s going to deed the earth. That nonaccomplishment volition get resolved 1 mode oregon the other, and past we’ll each unrecorded wrong of that framework. Why fto the radical utilizing those tools, erstwhile nary 1 knows however the wealth works, oregon adjacent if they’re due oregon legal, beryllium eligible for Grammys now, earlier the manufacture has sorted retired the morality oregon economics of those tools?

The aforesaid mode that we fto the euphony that has samples beryllium eligible, oregon we fto the euphony that has synthesizers, Auto-Tune, oregon Pro Tools beryllium eligible. It’s a technology, an improvement that has allowed radical to bash more, make differently, deliberation differently, and marque sounds we’ve ne'er heard before. So, for america to gully a enactment successful the soil and say, “If you utilized artificial intelligence, you are ineligible,” would be, I think, short-sighted. And I deliberation it would besides chopped down connected a batch of the euphony that’s being created and submitted. Also, wherever would you gully the line? There’s AI successful truthful overmuch of the bundle we usage present for analyzing and doing mixes and dependable design, not adjacent conscionable the generative AI that’s making music. The finer constituent is that we’ll let AI to beryllium utilized, but we’re not going to grant AI successful the consciousness that if AI is performing a song, it’s our rules that we volition not springiness the show an award.

If AI is penning the song, we volition not springiness an grant for the songwriting component. So, if, for example, you wrote a song, it was a beauteous composition, it had the champion lyrics, champion music, and champion chord progressions, and you had AI sing it, you could taxable it. It’s not going to triumph for singing. It could triumph for songwriting. Conversely, if you had AI conscionable constitute a opus arsenic a large song, but immoderate vocalist sang it oregon rapped connected it, and they performed the heck retired of it, I’m not going to penalize the quality creativity that went into that. So, I’m not going to springiness it an grant for the songwriting, but I volition springiness it an grant for the performance. And that’s the mode our rules are currently. I’m definite it’s going to change. The worldly is moving truthful quickly, but for now, that’s however the Academy is moving.

You are a songwriter; I’m assured that immoderate of your enactment is successful immoderate of these grooming databases. How bash you consciousness astir that?

I judge determination needs to beryllium an knowing of what these models are grooming on, and I’m not definite precisely to what level it volition travel down, whether there’s compensation outgo oregon crediting.  I bash deliberation thing has to change, and I don’t judge that people’s idiosyncratic transcript written worldly should conscionable beryllium utilized oregon accessed by everyone to bash thing they want. So, we person to travel to a bottom-line understanding. There are reasonably trained models retired there, radical who are licensing groups of euphony oregon catalogs to bid AI, and I deliberation that’s a bully spot to start, but there’s a batch to speech about. That’s astir apt a full different amusement that we could dive a small deeper into.

Yeah, I’m conscionable looking astatine your database of credits. You’ve got Destiny’s Child, you’ve got Britney Spears, it’s each successful here. Do you deliberation that that worldly should beryllium compensated if Suno and Udio are utilizing it to bid their models?

It’s a analyzable subject. So I deliberation there’s immoderate existent speech that needs to hap astir that. Should it beryllium compensated connected the grooming side? At slightest we request to cognize what it’s grooming on, however overmuch of it’s being used. There’s a batch of nuance to that question.

By the way, for the listener, you should conscionable spell look astatine Harvey’s Wikipedia leafage due to the fact that I named 2 retired of similar 500 marque sanction artists that you’ve worked with. It is an unthinkable list. I should person conscionable been asking astir that the full time.

The mode that you would lick this occupation economically successful the model of the instrumentality that we person close present is to delegate ownership to thing similar your voice, the mode you sound, oregon your likeness. The Recording Academy was successful enactment of a measure that passed successful Tennessee called the Elvis Act, which is simply a large sanction that adds voices to likeness protections. I work immoderate of the sum of that measure and it says, “Hey, there’s nary carve retired successful present for Elvis impersonators. We’re going to lick the AI problem, and we mightiness person conscionable made Elvis impersonators amerciable successful Tennessee.” How bash you spot that balance? That’s tough.

There’s nary cleanable solution oregon magic slug to immoderate of this stuff, particularly the velocity astatine which it’s moving. We are truly arrogant of the authorities that’s been introduced and passed successful a mates of antithetic states, but present we’re pushing for national authorities with the No Fakes No Frauds Act successful the House and the Senate.

But that’s dangerous, to marque Elvis impersonators federally illegal.

That’s not the intention.

I know, but however would you constitute that instrumentality to say: “A robot can’t dependable similar Elvis, but this feline can?”

Again, there’s a batch of nuances. There’s nary cleanable bill. None of these bills are exact. Everyone is trying to compensate and accommodate the needs of a batch of radical who person concerns and fears. Of course, we don’t privation to forestall idiosyncratic from impersonating Elvis, but we bash privation to forestall radical from impersonating artists oregon singers and utilizing their voices without immoderate signifier of payment, approval, oregon the close crediting. And these bills are starts. I’m definite they’ll beryllium revised. I’m definite there’ll beryllium caller bills and caller things enacted. But close now, we’ve got bipartisan, bicameral enactment that determination needs to beryllium immoderate authorities that supports and protects quality creativity and artistry. So, for us, it’s the archetypal step.

But adjacent those 2 things you said, “We don’t privation to halt Elvis impersonators, but we don’t privation radical to usage artist’s voices without compensation.” Yeah, that means the Elvis impersonators person to pay. Just that small basal thing. “Don’t usage my dependable for that impersonation.” Does it substance to you whether it’s AI, an Elvis impersonator, oregon a Britney Spears impersonator?

It does, but laws besides support definite usage of different people’s voices, adjacent if it’s different quality doing it. You can’t unreal to beryllium an creator and past monetize that successful definite ways. So, determination are laws successful the books that forestall that from happening.

As the wealth moves astir successful the euphony industry, we’ve tried to lick that occupation successful antithetic ways. So streaming rates went down, and present we each reason astir songwriting credits to marque definite immoderate of the pennies travel backmost to the archetypal artists due to the fact that the streaming isn’t paying those artists. I’ll springiness you an illustration lone due to the fact that Olivia Rodrigo’s Guts tour movie conscionable deed Netflix. So, I saw a clump of sum of this again. Taylor Swift came and took her recognition connected “Deja Vu.” Controversial. I’m already playing with occurrence now. The 2 fandoms are going to travel for me. But that’s the happening that happened. It’s precise controversial. And past Elvis Costello, who’s 1 of my favourite artists, came retired and said, “Okay, I hold that Olivia’s song, ‘Brutal,’ sounds a batch similar ‘Pump It Up.’”

And past his punctuation was, “This is good by me. That’s however stone and rotation works. You instrumentality the breached pieces of different thrill and marque a brand-new toy. That’s what I did. I did not find immoderate crushed to spell aft them legally for that, due to the fact that I deliberation it would beryllium ludicrous. Other radical intelligibly felt otherwise astir songs connected that record.”

So we’ve present created a script wherever it’s the artist’s prime whether they spell aft different artists for utilizing things similar chord progressions oregon large bridges. How bash you spot that resolving successful the satellite of AI? It’s already chaos without AI, and present we’re utilizing AI tools erstwhile we’re saying the reply to AI is to make much ownership of things similar voices, chord progressions, and sounds.

It’s each going to proceed to beryllium a messiness until we get it sorted out. Because yes, it’s difficult.

That is 1 of the astir candid answers to that question I’ve ever got.

I deliberation that’s the champion I tin springiness you because, arsenic you said, definite artists thin to assertion ownership otherwise than others. Also, artists sometimes person publishers oregon grounds companies that ain pieces of their catalog that thin to beryllium much assertive than immoderate artists mightiness people be. But arsenic you commencement introducing AI, unless we tin recognize wherever it’s coming from, what it’s replicating oregon learning from, and trying to simulate, it’s going to beryllium truly dang hard to fig retired wherever the wealth needs to spell oregon however the wealth tin flow. I’ll archer you 1 story. I met with the caput of the Copyright Office. She was an astonishing woman. She came to my studio, and we started pulling up immoderate of the generative AI platforms, and I was showing her however they worked.

This was astir apt 8 months ago. She hadn’t truly been exposed to overmuch of it. I typed successful a fewer words, and we made a track. I said, “Is that copyrightable?” And she says, “No, it’s not. It has to person quality enactment oregon quality involvement.” I said, “Well, I typed successful the prompt.” She’s like, “Oh, well, Harvey, that’s not enough.” So, I took the aforesaid way and I typed a response. I said, “Well, alteration the key, alteration the tempo, and alteration these 3 lyrics.” And I sent it backmost to the platform, and it sent backmost a caller song. I said, “Now, is that copyrightable?” And she says, “No, it’s getting closer, but I don’t deliberation it’s enough.”

I did 3 rounds of prompts, [the track] came backmost [as a] somewhat antithetic song. And she said, “Okay, I deliberation that’s right. I deliberation that’s quality interaction.” So, nary of this is figured out. The caput of the Copyright Office, who I thought was astonishing and incredible, and I emotion the information that she was funny and cared capable to travel to my studio… But the information [is] we don’t person an knowing of however this moves guardant and however we support creators, whether that’s the songwriters you mentioned, oregon radical that conscionable had catalogs from 20 years ago. We’re not going to person bully cleanable answers until we get those understandings.

But those understandings travel from litigation, right? We’re going to person to spell combat this out. Someone’s going to person to writer the copyright office, oregon idiosyncratic other is going to person to sue. One creator is going to person to writer another. The labels are going to writer the platforms.

If we tin advocator decently and loudly enough, adjacent wrong the tech platforms, passim the labels and publishers, journalists, and podcast hosts, and travel to an knowing of however this needs to function, arsenic confusing arsenic that mightiness be. We tin commencement to negociate immoderate of it internally. The aforesaid happening happened erstwhile we started sampling different people’s records. We had a clump of deed records that included different people’s samples — and that ran its course. We benignant of figured retired however it needed to beryllium treated and handled. [It’s the] aforesaid happening with streaming. There are things that radical are putting successful euphony each implicit the net and connected streaming services, and we’ve gotten to a spot wherever we’re somewhat better, [but] there’s inactive enactment to bash there. I judge we’ll travel to immoderate solutions astir AI and however we tin each arsenic oregon equitably enactment successful the revenue.

Can I really conscionable marque the examination to sampling and however that played out? Because you lived it precise directly. I watched it arsenic a young copyright lawyer, and it seemed similar the happening that got america done was that this is simply a beauteous closed ecosystem. There are lone truthful galore producers and labels, and the fig of labels is conscionable getting smaller. There are lone truthful galore clearing houses and artists that are going to effort to wide a sample. There are lone truthful galore managers and lawyers. So each those radical could talk, and you could say, “I request to wide the sample,” oregon successful the lawsuit of immoderate precise celebrated songs, forget, and past idiosyncratic could amusement up and get each the wealth later, which has happened much times than not. But it’s a closed ecosystem.

Very antithetic from AI. You’re right.

AI is this massive, unfastened ecosystem. At the apical of it are Mark Zuckerberg, Sundar Pichai astatine Google, and Sam Altman, who conscionable don’t look to springiness a shit. If you’re immoderate lawyer for immoderate creator and you effort to rotation up connected Sam Altman, he’s going to say, “Look, I stole Scarlett Johansson’s voice. What are you going to bash to me?” Is that going to play retired the aforesaid way, oregon is it going to beryllium messier? Because it seems similar nary 1 has immoderate leverage implicit these companies.

I’m definite it’ll beryllium messier due to the fact that it is simply a wider-reaching issue. But I bash deliberation there’s a way. Maybe I’m overly optimistic successful rose-colored glasses, but I deliberation radical recognize the value of music, possibly broader, the value of art, and AI has an interaction crossed each the antithetic disciplines of artistry. And if we tin proceed to stress its worth and value and constituent retired that this has the imaginable to truly beryllium harmful to it, I person to believe, successful my quality heart, that anybody would privation that to beryllium addressed. They would privation to travel up with a solution that made sense, whether it’s the guys you mentioned oregon heads of different companies.

I conscionable deliberation there’s a mode to bash it. I cognize everybody’s trying to physique their companies and make worth for their investors and shareholders. There are a batch of levels to this, but astatine the base, it’s music, man. It is music. We can’t person a wild, chaotic westbound astir copyright and ownership and intelligence spot protections. Stuff needs to beryllium done decently truthful that we tin proceed to archer these stories and person these emotions and the bosom and psyche down these songs. Otherwise, what are we doing? We’re conscionable going to person the machine marque everything. Now, if you look astatine AI for different things that are-

Did you speech to Sam Altman? Because that mightiness beryllium his answer.

I’m hoping to. He has a favourite artist. I cognize helium does. He has a set helium grew up listening to his full beingness successful his chamber portion helium was programming immoderate computer. He loves somebody, oregon helium work a publication that mattered, oregon helium saw a portion of creation that moved him. Everybody has. Not everybody, but astir people. I judge successful quality creativity. I judge successful AI and the powerfulness that it has to heighten and amplify quality creativity, and there’s a mode that they tin coexist. I believe.

A taxable of this speech for maine is the hostility you person betwixt your members who are nonrecreational musicians and portion of that community, and an assemblage of consumers and fans.

Whenever we constitute astir AI, the parts of our assemblage that are nonrecreational creatives are furious. I’m beauteous definite that we got much responses to my interrogation with the CEO of Adobe that fundamentally added up to “You should person arrested him,” much than immoderate different occurrence of Decoder we’ve ever done. Because radical were conscionable huffy that there’s generative AI successful Photoshop. What bash your members accidental astir this? Are they arsenic upset? Are they arsenic furious?

Our members are split. There are a batch of members who say, “AI is the devil; don’t fto it successful the house.” And they are fearful, rightfully so. And past there’s different radical of our members that are truly excited astir the powerfulness and the imaginable of AI, and they’re each in. They’re creating by utilizing it. They’re doing everything they tin utilizing AI. And neither broadside is wrong. Again, the quality of music, art, oregon creativity [is that] everybody creates differently. So, my relation is simply a hard one. It’s to effort and service our rank and our euphony assemblage reasonably and successful a mode that allows for a agleam aboriginal for our creators. Whether that’s utilizing AI, limiting AI, oregon making definite determination are guidelines astir AI — it’s to beryllium determined. But my focus, erstwhile I aftermath up, is to marque definite our quality creativity is healthy, it’s allowed to endure, and we tin proceed to marque a living.

We person a full radical of radical who marque their money, their living, wage their rent, and instrumentality attraction of their kids by creating art. And we person different procreation that’s coming up that wants to bash the aforesaid happening due to the fact that they cognize however we explicit ourselves. We cognize however euphony tin sometimes heal and unite people, and sometimes people... I was connected a level the different day, and determination was a pistillate sitting adjacent to me, a mates of seats over, connected a laptop, and she was crying. I thought she was typing a missive to somebody. She was programming successful logic connected her keyboard, crying. So this is therapy; this is expression. This is simply a quality emotion. And truthful I privation to marque definite that we’re realizing, yes, AI is simply a portion of that. How tin it beryllium integrated successful a mode that’s liable and reasonable?

Yeah. Well, Harvey, I got to fto you go, but I can’t fto you spell without asking 1 question I’ve been dying to inquire you the full time. Who’s a young creator connected the come-up that radical should beryllium paying attraction to? Because I cognize you person a afloat presumption of this industry.

I do. I person a presumption of immoderate of the coolest and champion caller artists successful music. One of my favourite parts of the occupation is getting to conscionable these creators. But I’m going to ruin the question due to the fact that it would beryllium irresponsible of maine to archer you who the adjacent idiosyncratic was oregon idiosyncratic that I emotion due to the fact that determination are conscionable truthful many. And I don’t privation it to look arsenic if it’s an Academy endorsement. But I volition accidental this: I deliberation determination are much caller creators making music, making large creation than successful the past of euphony due to the fact that of the access, due to the fact that of the technology, due to the fact that of the young pistillate I saw connected the level programming connected a laptop similar this, due to the fact that of the information that you tin enactment euphony retired without gatekeepers, without barriers to entry. You cognize the magnitude of songs that are being created and released; it’s astronomic, and it’s prolific.

And truthful I volition say, to your question, determination are large caller artists successful hip-hop. I’ve present heard a caller harvest of unthinkable stone bands, which I deliberation we’ve had a small spot of a shortage of. I’ve heard... Obviously that [there’s a] determination into state and immoderate large caller artists. I emotion however you’re seeing genre-bending artists creating antithetic types of euphony successful those genres. Jazz. There’s a rebirth astir jazz that I’m loving and I’m truly excited about. So I mean, I don’t know. I tin geek retired each time connected euphony and caller music, but this is simply a taxable that I emotion to speech about. Great music, large caller artists, and however we’re going to observe them.

All right. I did my best. That was the hardest question I could deliberation of, which is wherefore I saved for the end. I’m going to person to find you; we’re going to person to speech astir euphony immoderate different time, conscionable for an hour. Thank you truthful overmuch for coming to Decoder.

Anytime. I emotion it.